Adi Da is Dead

from The Nonduality Highlights

Death of Adi DaAdi Da Mahasamadhi

What follows is a series of announcements that are out of chronological order and reproduced as received from my informant.

Dear Devotees,

It is the middle of the night here at Adi Da Samrajashram, devotees remain in what is now clearly the Mahasamadhi Vigil of Beloved Bhagavan Sapta Na Adi Da Samraj. The time of Beloved Bhagavan’s Divine Mahasamadhi is being placed at approximately 5:10 PM on Thursday, November 27th, 2008.

Everyone here has been shocked at how quickly the Mahasamadhi occurred. Bhagavan Adi Da was sitting in His Chair Working in Picture Perfect. Just a minute before, He had been Giving Instructions relative to His Divine Image Art. A few minutes before that, He had been speaking humorously and laughing. And then He silently fell over on His Side and within a very short period of no more than a couple of minutes, He had entered into His Mahasamadhi. Dr. Charles Seage and Dr. Andrew Dorfman diagnose that Beloved Bhagavan suffered a fatal heart attack. There were no signs of struggle, but a quick and painless transition.

Beloved Bhagavan had given no indications that He was going to be taking Mahasamadhi. Up until that point, He had been experiencing what seemed to be a normal day. He had been continuing His Divine Puja of preparing gifts for Danavira Mela earlier in the day, and had been in Picture Perfect for a good part of the day.

Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da’s Body is now sitting upright on His Bed in His Bedroom at Aham Da Asmi Sthan. He is draped in orange clothes.

The Ruchira Sannyasin Order and a few intimate devotees are sitting in the bedroom with Him. Devotees are also sitting on the veranda outside of His Room in silent meditative communion.

Beloved Bhagavan has previously Given Instructions that His Body is to be allowed to rest uninterferred with for a minimum of three days before it is taken to the Outshining “Brightness”, His Permanent Mahasamadhi resting place. The pre-burial Vigil may last longer, even for several weeks, if Beloved Bhagavan’s Body does not show signs of decay.

Ruchiradama Quandra Sukhapur has invited all to come to Naitauba during this time. Everyone is invited. All four congregations of devotees. And anyone else who wishes to come who will be rightly related to making this pilgrimage. This has all happened so quickly that we have not yet figured out how the practical details will be managed. But anyone who is moved to come to Naitauba to participate in Beloved Bhagavan’s Mahasamadhi Vigil should begin to consider their practical arrangements to make the pilgrimage.

As mentioned, there is no way to know exactly how long it will be before Beloved Bhagavan’s Divine Bodily Human Form will be Sacredly Interned at the Outshining “Brightness”. If the pre-burial Vigil only lasts the minimum period of three days, Beloved Bhagavan’s Divine Bodily Human Form could be Installed at the Outshining “Brightness” as early as late Sunday. So all who wish to be here for this Sacred Ceremony should begin to make immediate plans for the journey.

This is a very difficult time for all devotees and friends of Adi Da Samraj. Adi Da has always told us that His Mahasamadhi would be the time when He would most fully enter into His Divine Translation. He has said that it would be for Him a Divine Outshining of this Realm altogether. And He has also told us, that it would unleash a further Siddhi of His Divine Blessing. This is already being felt by devotees here at Adi Da Samrajashram. So even though this is one of the most difficult times that all devotees will ever experience, in terms of the Mahasamadhi of our Beloved Divine Master, it will also best also be a time in which we remain focused in our Divine whole bodily turning to Beloved Bhagavan. It feels here that somehow He is “holding up” all of His devotees to go through this moment with equanimity and continued reception of His Divine Blessing.


(From James Steinberg at Adi Da Samrajashram)

Om Sri Parama-Sapta-Na Adi Da Love-Ananda Hridayam

Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 11:37:39 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Fwd: Adi Da Samraj Health Situation
Dear Fellow Devotees,

Praise to Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da Samraj.

At this moment Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da Samraj is experiencing an extreme medical crisis. We do not know the full extent of what is happening with His Divine Bodily Human Form. However, this crisis is an extreme one in which He has Swooned out of His Body. This has occurred to the extent that He has not had a heart-beat or pulse, for nearly an hour’s time. Medical procedures are not reviving Him.

Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da has in the past Approved a medical protocol relative to such a circumstance. He has made it plain that nothing should be done to interfere with His Bodily Human Form for an extended period of time, a minimum of three full days. This is because He may always and at any point resume ordinary Consciousness and Life. However, at this moment, He is not animating the body at all.

He was working in Picture Perfect at the Matrix, at Adi Da Samrajashram. It appeared to be a normal day, and He had been with the healers last night and was doing very well physically. He has actually been stronger and in better health over the past few weeks. Therefore it was a surprise when He simply collapsed, while working on His Divine Avataric Image Art.

As devotees know, Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da Samraj is a Divine Yogi. There is a long history of such beings having very unconventional “death events” or moments in their lives. We have seen this in Beloved Bhagavan’s Case in many circumstances in the past–the Ruchira Dham or Lopez Island Event, and the Divine Emergence, as merely two of them. Certainly it is the hope of this moment, as we write, that Beloved Bhagavan will Re-Enter His Body and begin a new Phase of His Work. It is our hope and intention that He will Re-Animate the Body and wake up.

Here at Adi Da Samrajashram we are all invoking and praying for Adi Da Samraj to resume His Bodily Functioning. Ruchiradama Quandra Sukhapur Rani has repeated to us, that His Motive in Returning to the Body will be devotees’ heart-need and calling. All devotees are asked at this moment to engage in a Vigil of Prayer and Invocation of Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da, and a Calling to Him to Stay here with us.

In the history of the Great Tradition, there have been many great Yogic Realizers who have dropped out of their bodies for an extended period of time, without heartbeat or pulse, and later Spiritual Revived. This was the case with Swami Nityananda in the 1920s. He left the body for many hours and was believed by many to have died. Upon returning, he declared that his work was simply not done. Also Shirdi Sai Baba left his body for a full three days in the 1880s, and upon returning there was a dramatic change in the fullness and potency of his work. Examples like this are numerous. And Adi Da Samraj is the Greatest of Master Yogis. Therefore we call upon devotees to invoke and call upon Adi Da Samraj with our full heart-need for His Continued Presence amongst us in Bodily Human Divine Form.

At this moment, Adi Da Samraj remains lying in horizontal position at Picture Perfect. The devotees here are gathered around the building, doing Vigil and calling upon Him to remain with us, with full heart need. Drs. Charles Seage and Andrew Dorfman are with Beloved Bhagavan, as well as the Ruchiradamas, and many devotees to assist in tending to Adi Da Samraj.

One recommended action you can take, is to go into your Communion Hall and invoke Beloved Bhagavan down into His Divine Body, through waving of lights, chanting, recitations, the Devotional Prayer of Changes, or simply heartfelt invocation and communion with Him.

We will continue to inform and update you as the evening progresses.

Om Sri Parama Sapta Adi Da Love-Ananda Hridayam

Subject: Update on Bhagavan Adi Da Samraj
To: All 1C / 2C Devotees ~

Dear devotees,

At 8 pm Fiji time, Lesley Huber, speaking on behalf of the Ruchira Sannyasin Order Authority Office, made the following communication:

“At approximately 5:10 pm Fiji time, while working with His Divine Image Art in Picture Perfect, it appears that Bhagavan Adi Da suffered a massive heart attack, and since that time has shown no heartbeat or pulse. At this time, 8 pm, medical intervention has been suspended in respect for the Divine Yogic Integrity of the Master’s Body.

Masters choose their time of relinquishing the body, and saints and realizers have returned after extended periods without apparent life signs.

At this point, all devotees should understand that this is a Divine Yogic matter, and participate accordingly. Devotees in Hermitage are in a deep Vigil in and around Picture Perfect, and it is essential that devotees worldwide likewise enter into a Vigil in their own places of Communion and Worship. We encourage devotees to gather, wherever possible, in the Empowered Halls of the gathering, and stay connected.”

We will continue to send further updates as they become available.

Om Sri Parama-Sapta-Na Adi Da, Love-Ananda Hridayam

Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:55 AM
Subject: Fwd: Further update

Update on Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da’s Condition

Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da Samraj’s Bodily Human Divine Form is now lying on His Bed in His Bedroom at Aham Da Asmi Sthan at the Matrix.

His Bodily Human Form was carried on a stretcher in silent procession from Picture Perfect to Aham Da Asmi Sthan. Beloved Bhagavan was covered with a sannyasin orange shawl during this time.

A number of devotees are now in the Bedroom with Adi Da Samraj keeping Vigil with lit deepa lamps. The rest of the Adi Da Samrajashram devotees are keeping Vigil outside on the veranda in front of the Darshan swing.

Please continue to invoke and call Adi Da Samraj to Reanimate His Divine Bodily Human Form for the sake of each of us and for the entire world.

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1,131 thoughts on “Adi Da is Dead

  1. indiaplazabooks

    Advanced souls leaving the body and coming back is a common occurrence, like we go out of our house and come back. Most of them, however, take some precaution so as to be not found by the public. But I guess occasionally they slip and we find out that these are different folks.
    I am not sure if I should give condolences for Adi Da having left the body for good. For he will always be around for those who loved him.

  2. Nancy Clothier

    I’m not sure how to feel right now….other than grateful for all the love, and insight I have recieved from Samaraj Adi Da. My experience with him has been a blessing, and the great gifts that have emerged as a result of my involvement with him will never die.
    I think of his children now, and send them my love.
    Thank you to all of you who served him personally. I have not chosen to live that way of life, but his message will always be alive in me, shining with recognition.

  3. Adi De Nada

    Anyone want to take bets that this guy will stay dead? No way is he coming back. Get over it folks- he’s dead and gone.

    Now go find the Godhead within each of you and quit chasing after others you place on pedestals.

    Game over.

  4. DdV

    I never met him in the physical but he deeply touched me in the subtle and opened my Heart. His books, the Love that ran through him, his teaching, and the teachers I worked with who learned from him have enriched my life beyond measure. Though the human form is no longer animated the love remains alive. In gratitude.

  5. Daniel Wilson

    Jaya Sri Adi Da.
    Jaya Sri Bhagavan Adi Guru.
    Words cannot convey the immensity of this moment, nor how much we will all miss His bodily human form. The sky crys with sorrow for this loss. I pray Your Divine Brightness is forever magnified amongst us all, Beatifull Beloved Guru.
    I also pray that, in this case, dead Guru’s can still kick ass.
    We stand and weep in rememberance and Love.
    Thankyou Da.

  6. petrananda

    Adi Da Samraj is little understood by the world. He claimed to be a World Teacher, but only had a handful of formal devotees at anyone time. Why was this so, in all of 30 years?

    For me His teaching has given me a destiny of True Love and True Happiness that I as an ego could never have found in the world. I cry with gratitude and appreciation for His Presence in my life and with the certainty of His presence as I continue to live. May He continue to shout and bark in our ears so that we might Hear and transcend our separative nonsense. The Divine can only Live. There is no death.

    thank you Lord

  7. Dave

    I am profoundly saddened by the loss of this great master. You can see based on the comments by some that this is why humans are in they state they are in. Masters are rarely recognized by the masses and the ones that are, usually aren’t of a truly profound nature. Adi Da Samraj was true. He found me when I was not looking for a master. He literally saved my life from imminent death and transformed me into a man of understanding. With very little contact He changed my life in ways that could never happen in therapy or with drugs. He has always lived truth with me despite the madness that surrounded Him and His community of devotees. If you don’t know what an esoteric spiritual practice is, then you could never know who He was. I never believed in Him and always questioned everything He did and said. And He always revealed the truth to me in my heart and that is how I continue to live to this day.

    I recommend anyone that is moved to try asking Him to reveal Himself to you.

  8. Dave

    Madhu: I would venture to guess it might even be worse than it is now around this planet. If we got the percentage of humans that chase gurus vs the ones that don’t it’s probably less than .00001% of the 6.5 billion humans on the planet. If we reversed that and did what you think, chase gurus around, I would guess there would be much less violence, terrorism and environmental issues than there currently are. What do you think?

  9. otis

    He was a Great, Great Being. We who know even a little of this were blessed to be alive during the lifetime of this One. Those who come after will, paradoxally, appreciate Him far more than we did.

  10. Stuart Resnick

    indiaplazabooks Says:
    > Advanced souls leaving the body and coming back is a
    > common occurrence, like we go out of our house and come
    > back.

    There are lots of STORIES like this. But since they’re just stories, not supported by solid evidence, it might be better to not confuse the stories with reality.

    NC Says:
    > Adi De Nada…This is not the time or place.

    When there’s great loss and suffering… that may well be the BEST time and place to examine one’s own desires, expectations, and life-direction.

    When things are going well, when we’re happy, when we’ve got the tings that we want… it’s very difficult to question life and our ideas storngly and sincerely. It’s the virtue of suffering that it inspires us to question our own ideas and attachments that underlie the suffering.

    It’s like… if someone is attached to money, the current financial situation is causing great suffering. Out of that suffering can come a clear examination of the attachment itself.

    Dave Says:
    > I would venture to guess it might even be worse than it is
    > now around this planet. If we got the percentage of humans
    > that chase gurus vs the ones that don’t it’s probably less
    > than .00001% of the 6.5 billion humans on the planet.

    While it may be true that few people literally follow someone they call a “guru”… isn’t it true that most humans have a habit of believing in an external authority of one sort or another? Whether this is good or bad for the planet is an imponderable. But each of us as individuals can look into our own thinking, our own tendency to believe in an authority over our own direct experience. No one can tell you whether this is good or bad, but each of us can look into our thinking for ourselves.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

  11. NC

    lol, one can say what one wants, but discourse can be be expected, unless of course you are wanting only your point of view percieved as right. There is nothing remotely wrong with common courtesy.

  12. NC

    Stuart, there is a difference between motivating people to examine there motives, and just being downright disrespectful, but even that has to arise in the midst of our reality. Perhaps I was just asking for respect for the grieving process. Over the years, I’ve questioned my motives many times. I still wonder what my relationship to Adi Da was all about, and I seem to have developed an inability to embrace religion, but I still love Adi Da Samaraj. I can not comprehend what that is all about, and I will not attach any meaning to it. I’ll leave that to others who are more involved with the yoga of the mind, but no matter who he was, is, or will be does not change the fact that the love I feel remains. One can not help who they love. I’ve just learned to bring intelligence to it, and act with as much integrity as I can.

  13. Stuart Resnick

    NC Says:
    > lol, one can say what one wants, but discourse can be be
    > expected, unless of course you are wanting only your point
    > of view percieved as right. There is nothing remotely wrong
    > with common courtesy.

    OK. When I read the initial comment about “this is not the time or place,” I thought it was suggesting that this forum shouldn’t be questioning Da’s teachings, or the beliefs of his devotees, or the truth of “mahasamdhi” ideas, etc.

    If the suggestion is that this discussion should be done in with a style of courtesy and decency, then wonderful. Since Da was a public figure who presented himself as an authority, a figure upon whom many projected strong ideas and beliefs… I think his death is a fine time to question his teachings and the beliefs that swirl around him. To continue this questioning frankly and sincerely, doesn’t in itself violate my sense of common courtesy.

    Stuart

  14. Hubbell

    It is always obvious when someone does not know a teacher and probably never had one.

    Stuart – you are taking the hits – because you have never known Beloved Adi Da as YOUR GURU and Divine lover and teacher and friend.

    I am thrilled to Be His Devotee and feel His teaching effects.

    STuart – i would ho[e you would find a teacher you can surrender to and learn who you are before you die.

    You are not Stuart, Stuart – you are The Divine event of your own life.

    This is what propels us to Know For Sure – this is Who We Are in multi-universes of causal movements of manifesting forms and more causes . . .Here And Now . . we somehow consciously float in the Stillness. . . awakening without effort . . .to Know Ourselves – Finally – without doubt!!

    We are each This One Being – Here and Now – Each in our own true Divine Birth reality and process.

    These Roots – these authors, adepts and sages are Here to Open Our Own Witness to Our Own Presence –

    Our Cosmic Causal Event is Most Served when we Understand these Ciphers of Consciousness reveals Our Evolutionary Message to each other: Wake Up Now ! . . . .release the false uninspected Thickness of Mass called “humanity”.

    We are Waking Up: As Our True Spiritual Beingness.

    This Event Is Truly What Is Happening To All of Us – these days of the “early years of the 21st Century of Man!” . . .this Eternal Moment Of Divine Birth!!

    We Each are Being Divinely Born – Right Now!–

    We Are this Living Event of Our Birth As Individuated Consciousness – awakening, growing, learning and receiving the certainty of this feeling of Our State of Being . . .and Our Silent Beingness is enough – – – for Now!

  15. NC

    No one can comprehend what this being represents. He is beyond the ordinary constructs of our minds. Whatever you say about “Him” can be asserted or denied. That the beauty and frustration of his teaching.
    You either understand, or you don’t. No praise, no blame.
    “God” not only exists in all of us, but prior to us, and in the midst of all things, and beings. God is a term to describe what is unknown, and what is unknown is beautiful, and terrifying all at once. The only constant is embracing the present moment.
    Samaraj Adi Da is a doorway to reality. He brought back the sacred. On his sanctuaries it is felt. There is need for this in the world. I don’t believe in false gods anymore.

  16. lol

    petrananda says:

    ‘He claimed to be a World Teacher, but only had a handful of formal devotees at anyone time. Why was this so, in all of 30 years?’

    answer:

    he was obviously a charlatan and a fraud

  17. lol

    dave says:

    ‘He literally saved my life from imminent death and transformed me into a man of understanding.’

    i wonder if dave knows every other devotee says the same thing verbatim

  18. lol

    dave also says:

    ‘Masters are rarely recognized by the masses’

    oh, but you, the extraordinary ONES, can see adida revealed for his true divine self. the rest of us are merely ordinary and cannot perceive such a thing.

    do you realize how insulting that is to anyone with half a brain? the ones who know da is a fraud are the true enlightened ones. you are all just sheep.

    there are over 1000 guru/teachers claiming divinity in this country right now, with an average of followers well above the 1100 in adidam. are all of these gurus gods? or was it just adida, the true one?

  19. Stuart Resnick

    Hubbell Says:
    > It is always obvious when someone does not know a
    > teacher and probably never had one.

    When you have ideas about others, you may think it’s obvious that you know someone else’s mind… but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Each of us can speak with authenticity about our own experience. Once we switch to judging someone else’s experience, it becomes speculation, very difficult or impossible to extract any truth from our projections.

    I’ve never met anyone who didn’t claim to have a teacher. Sometimes people say they learn from another human being, sometimes from the blue sky, the green trees, the barking of a dog, etc. Sometimes people emphasize teachings that come from another person or group or scripture, sometimes the teaching of their own experience. As children, we ALL know what it’s like to rely on authorities for our teaching. Some people at some times turn more to their own inquiry.

    > Stuart – you are taking the hits – because you have never
    > known Beloved Adi Da as YOUR GURU and Divine lover and
    > teacher and friend.

    People who think of Adi Da as a Divine lover etc have one perspective. People who don’t hold that idea have a different one.

    > STuart – i would ho[e you would find a teacher you can
    > surrender to and learn who you are before you die.

    Different people at different times hold different ideas about who they are. And sometimes people drop such ideas and only don’t know.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

  20. honest questions

    Who will lead now that he has passed?

    On a personal note, I never understood why any God would require large sums of money from those that follow him; further, it seems like with most religions or organised belief systems, the real God or enlightenment comes from those that follow, lightening their own ‘burden’ of worldly goods, while enriching he or she offers spritual guidence.

  21. Dave

    I have been reading the comments on this blog and I can’t argue with anyone about who is right or wrong. If you truly want to know if Adi Da is who he says he is, ask him. I have had several people in my life ask that question and almost all of them have gotten an answer soon after they asked. He has spoken to them, shown up in subtle form with them, but almost all have gotten the answer. Almost none of them became devotees, but they all got to personally find out from Adi Da himself what they needed to know. He has told some they are not ready to be his devotee and others have been asked to surrender something they cling to. Most leave as quickly as they can because they are not ready for real spiritual life. He was and is a fire that will burn up everything that is between you and realizing your true nature. But only if you allow it.

  22. Respectfully_Yours

    It is with great respect that I observe the passing of Franklin Jones, aka Adi Da. He was not my guru, but I respect the fact that so many got so much from his ministry. And although it is never a good time to point a critical eye at someone so beloved by so many, during his life I never felt it appropriate to do so, and even now I am apprehensive. But I want to share a possibility with all those who read these comments, which is this:

    Adi Da was not an avatar. Nor was he awake or enlightened. He was a man with tremendous insight, and a vast amount of emptiness (the good kind) permeating his consiousness. Beyond that, he was as human as the rest of us.

    The litmus test that I use, and I propose to you, is that if you look at him or interact with him, you can get a sense that he is pulling you into him. With a true avatar, there is no one there to pull you. An avatar just IS, and has no investment in your acceptance of who or what they are. They receive those who come. That is all.

    Adi Da spent way too much time talking about his divine nature to pass such a litmus test. I write this not out of disrespect for him, for he embodies Divine Reality as much as anyone, but to provide another perspective to those who might find it useful. For those who mourn his loss, my heart goes out to you; it is never easy to lose a beloved teacher, and wish you and the passing soul of Adi Da many, many blessings.

  23. Baazumi

    In Bhagavan Adi Da’s own Words:

    “You spend your entire life within the dream, within this vast adventure, to find the princess in the crystal palace and save her from the dragon, or to wait in the crystal palace to be rescued by the prince. You live an endless, endless adventure, millions and millions of ages, year after year after year in numberless complications. But at some point along the way you become serious enough to examine your motivation to seek, to examine the cause, the root, for which this goal is only the symbol. At last one realizes that one cannot find one’s symbolic satisfaction. And this falling into one’s dilemma, then falling through it, is the unqualified Intuition of one’s Ultimate Nature and Real Condition…

    “The waking state promises something relatively undesirable to one who is suspended in the twilight state of a pleasant dream. Such a one is reluctant to understand, too distracted to be interested in understanding. The ordinary reluctance of people is not truly caused by a premonition that the life, or sadhana, of understanding is so difficult. It is only that they do not yet care about it. Somehow, for the moment, everything seems all right. For the most part, the usual man or woman possess a relatively healthful physical life, with certain satisfactions, certain opportunities, things to do, books to read, a future of places, physical pleasures, mental pleasures. With all of that, who wants to Awaken? And most people come to Me in that condition. Therefore, I do not take them seriously. I know they are only indulging themselves, even if to others the new arrivals seem to deserve only mercy and the grin of promised salvation. When these seekers come to Me, they make all kinds of complaints about their fundamental suffering. Please give me this salvation, this realization, this release! But they are not really looking for that. They are unwilling to endure the discipline of Truth.

    “There are certain limitations to the entire adventure and pleasure of ordinary life. You know you are going to die some time, but, essentially, mysteriously, life still seems to be full. Thus, Truth is not likely to enter the real picture without the intervention of some fundamental, transforming event. But if you are smart, if your life is generated with Conscious Intensity, you do not have to become desperate before you will turn to the Truth. Your circumstances do not have to become empty, corrupted, and diseased. You do not have to wait for the failure of life itself before you will turn to the Truth. Someone who is waiting for life to disprove itself is only indulging himself or herself. There is nothing profound about the search or suffering of such a one. But if one is smart, if one’s life is an intensity, one is always turning to Truth from birth….

    “When you become less concerned for your particular search, for your inwardness, for your adventure, you have simply become more sensitive to your Real Condition. You have felt the sunlight falling on your sleeping eyes. When your eyes have opened in the morning light, everything will be obvious to you. And you will know that you have never slept, that you have never dreamed, that you have never been limited to any thing that has appeared, you have never been in any condition you have assumed. There was always only Reality Itself, your True Nature, which is Love-Bliss, Consciousness, the Unqualified Intensity.

    Taken from “The Method of the Siddhas”, the Gorilla Sermon by Adi Da Samraj. An older book, perhaps his second book, which may be available on
    Amazon.com.

  24. Nick

    Da, what a tragedy that you have left us in bodily form. I felt your body was ill when healers common to both us went many weeks ago to aid you. Now that your work is complete it is a gift to us all. One we can take from it a deep emanating love. Thank you.

  25. NC

    Honest question, Sanctuaries require money. It is one way to preserve beauty in the world. I’d rather see large sums of money go to these endeavors, than trashing the earth.

  26. Ellen Chrystal

    I spent 8 very interesting years with adi da — in the “early days”. I left when I realized that he was standing in the way of realization. i was so tired of his constant self reference and insane demands. yes, i had all the experiences, dreams, ecstacies, etc. — but i also realized that all of these experiences were self created. truth has nothing to do with any experience. and there is nothing spiritual or material if there is only god. logically, if there is only god, then there is no god. and if there is only god then where is the need for a guru?
    adi da actually created duality in every word he spoke.
    I was very fortunate because i came upon U.G. Krishnamurti. Then I had a chance to see the real thing. It is true that an “enlightened” person will not talk about enlightenment and ask people to worship him.
    the reason adi da had so few followers after years of teaching and writing, is that he was unapproachable and only people with money had easy access. his doors were not opened —
    After i left and finally threw him out of my system, i often wished i could talk to him one to one and tell him what i thought about him. but no one could get near him unless they were completely “surrendered.” Reminds me of Bush’s style of leadership.
    He died, just as we all will.
    And our bodies will break down into their constituent elements. And that’s that.

  27. NC

    To me Samaraj Adi Da is no longer an external authority. I made Him that at first in order to fufill a childish need to find approval from a father figure. And while I have not been exclusively served by him spiritually, his teaching effected me in a most fundamental way. I realize that I often choose to live as a self involved separate personality, but he showed me there was another way.Even though I am no longer a formal student the argument of his teaching has stayed with me, and I have remained suspicious of my self involved motives at every turn. It has made me more tolerant of other ways of life, and more open to change. I can’t say I didn’t go through a dark night of the soul after I left the community but it was necessary, that I suffer my attachment to my ordinary perceptions till I was willing to change.
    He criticized me for being an idealistic romantic, and wanting to make my own religion rather than turn to him. In fact, I seemed incapable to submit to that relationship in a mature fashion, and I came to wonder if the whole construct of the guru-devotee relationship was even possible for me. I entered into it very naively (and also with a lot of baggage).
    But everytime I saw him, I was so immersed in love. Even when I view a picture of him I come to rest in truth. He awakens me to love.
    I have experienced awakenings with viewing other murtis, viewing a tiger, and even just being present with anyone brings me into that experience again….but with him it always goes deeper.
    I can not believe in anything anymore. I can’t be anything anymore, but I can simply admit, that whoever Samaraj is, I love him, to the best of my understanding.

  28. John

    Finally a world of opportunity is ahead for the wifes of the tiran “Adida”. Hopefully the slavery and the abuse will end in Naitumba. This charlatan has escaped prison time since his last three law suits, Refer to 1985 with his drug abuse, sex abuse, etc,. He’s gone forever, thanks to the real GOD.

  29. richard martin

    I am an EX-devotee…theres a reason for that…Trust, or rather the violation of, being the main reason for leaving.

    As cynical as this may sound the only people that have “seen” the body are in Fiji. There is precident in the “divine play” (see divine comedy) of “death experiences” and “reimergence” in the world of Da. The “church” is dying and has been for years. James Steinbergs comments about Da’s “instructions” for his body for “three days” (how very christian) and a “possible” “reimergence” have a certain familiarity to them.

    As I said…TRUST…I don’t trust this. Wouldn’t it be realy cool if Da came back on the third day? Who will move the stone away from the front of the tomb? Will there be a final Accention for all to see. What a needed shot in the arm for this dead church (bled to death by the “master” himself) this could be!

    Sorry kids…gotta see the body first otherwise it’s just an unsubstantiated rumor.

  30. John Koenigshofer

    Picture an island on fire. See the brillant flames illuminate the night sea. Hear the drums and the singing. Hear the wailing. Hear the wind in the black trees.

    Ours is a world ruled by terrible myths. War lords, billionairs and charletans erect times towers and subdivide space. Horrors are imagined and realized.

    We are born from nothing and drift to nowhere. There is no victory or success.

    How strange and rare when sweet genius devotes itself to gardens and songs and love. When the mind crumbles under paradox and the body rises on the heat of discipline. How strange when the heart opens and the moment is a lovers tear!

    I wandered up and down the ladders of experience. I saw the gates of light swing wide open. I sat with Adi Da Samraj and was carried to the edge of madness or freedom. I could not tell which it was. I was torn. I was not worthy. I could not surrended at the deepest place. My corrurption and dillusion was total and profound.

    He called me, whispered to me, wander in my dreams. He articulated what I saw but could not speak. He forgave me. Let me go back into the lost worlds. He reminded me with laughter. Showed himself when I did not expect it. He let me love him as life, as a sea shore, a bird on a twig. He let me love him imperfect, as the people near me, as the world with all its sorrow.

    I could not answer his calling. I fell short. He criticized me but then kissed me. He was generous at a distence. He knew my weakness.

    I am far from that island but I see it shinning in the middle of the black sea. I knew he had come. I tried to be with him. I was made dizzy and made with my failing. He loved me anyway. He shone everywhere.

    Beautiful Adi Da, you are the world and what is prior to it. You are what remains when it vanishes. You are the mystery that is this new day. You are what beats our hearts. We are not as wise as you. We struggle to surrender and try to understand…

    Yet, as you have said “if it is the truth it is always already the case”.

    I am so sad that I was never able to come around again. I am so blessed to have sat with you in the past. I will not forget you. I will creep on slowly, imperfect and dim but seeing you everywhere.

    I feel your presence now. I weep. I feel your presence now. I rejoice. All that you said is true. I will serve you the best I can. I thank you for your wonderous, joyful, mad, brillant, exstatic, wild, stoic, austere, indulgent, sublime beautiful life and love.

    May we all be free. May we all transcend the mortal news. There is only God! None of us are worthy. Still, there is only God!

  31. cybershadow

    As a once former student 1975-1981; recently returned in 2007.

    Considering the great range of opinions (here and on any forum); my thinking is that people arrive at a belief and support that belief–whatever it may be–as “The Truth!”

    I think it is indicative of humans that they then follow such beliefs as ‘the path’ that they should take.

    I am grieved at the passing of one that I love; but I wish for the greatest good to come from this event.

    I know not what to expect from here on out, but I know what I feel…and I know that those feelings affect my decisions on which path to take.

    I ask myself: “What path will create the greatest good?”

  32. Michael

    Adi Da often referred to His devotees as “coins.” And He sometimes referred to all humanity as His “coins.” One of the inherent characteristics of a coin is that it has two sides which never “see” each other. There are those who embrace Adi Da, there are those who reject him — opposite sides of the coin. Those who have embraced Adi Da, and have found great joy in doing so, then praise Him, chant for Him, live for Him. Those who have not embraced Adi Da then go about expressing their negativity. These apparently opposing positions will not come together, and, therefore, any attempts of one side to convince the other are utterly futile. Yet, these apparently opposing positions do nothing to change the fact that they are still of the same “coin.” As experts of duality and non-duality, we should all know this, eh?
    Devotees of Adi Da will continue to serve the Guru, because the Guru is not about the Bodily Human Form, He is about the Divine Person. The Guru is as present and potent today as He was two weeks ago. The Bodily Human Form is spent, but the Guru, the Divine Person, is not. Devotees won’t change the mind of any critics, any more than critics will affect the minds of devotees. You’d think the arguments would simply end…
    Every one — both devotees and critics — will, one day, pass into the next realm, whatever it turns out to be. When this becomes a kind of “in-your-face” realization (and not just an idea), then we can make a conscious choice about how to conduct our lives, in the world or in a blog forum. The disciplined path is always the difficult one. It is far easier to be casual. Life is not an individual affair, so it shouldn’t be treated as such.

  33. cybershadow

    NC Says:

    (November 30, 2008 at 9:51 am)
    “I notice that our criticisms of others, often say more about ourselves.”

    Well said NC!

    To my way of thinking, and to what I believe…this statement is probably the most profound…here and in any forum!
    Thank you.

  34. cybershadow

    I really appreciate your beautiful, poetic but pointed description John Koenigshofer! My heart is moved….

  35. honest questions

    NC:

    I understand that all religions need money, it is the amount they require I have serious issues with, especially when a guru is living in the lap of luxury and many of his followers barely scrape by.

    I would still like to know, how it will be decided who will take over the leadership of this group. The way I understand it, Adida said he was the living God, at risk of sounding snarky, how does one fill that position?

  36. honest questions

    NC Says:

    November 30, 2008 at 9:51 am
    I notice that our criticisms of others, often say more about ourselves.

    In reply to this comment:

    Like the many comments that claim that only those enlightened have come to accept and understand the teachings of Adida?

  37. Ellen Chrystal

    NC — our criticisms or praise are coming only from ourselves and our thoughts — so what else can they be saying? I only speak from my point of view and observation. i am aware that people all over the world are worshipping some form, idea or another. and criticize others who choose not to do that.
    no praise, no blame. just my humble opinion.
    the poetry is nice though when people are moved by death.

  38. azyuwish

    I agree with NC, as I have much in common with what s/he says.

    I was involved with Adi Da during the years of 1985-1997. Off and on a formal devotee. When the claims grew more and more inflated to the point of “I am more ONE than anyone.” I found I could no longer stay on course within the Community.

    However. BIG however. Da has been a part of my life and a fundamental influence on my world view despite the apparent detachment. No one struck so deeply at the core of me via any Teaching. The first Knee of Listening, The Method of the Siddhas, Enlightenment of the Whole Body and The Bodily Location of Happiness remain, for me, the greatest texts of all time. Nirvanasara is brilliant as well, but Method is the one that has been like a Bible to me.

    Many leelas of connection to Da, dreams, synchronicities etc. Just today while walking in the forest I suddenly smelled the scent of Sant Yellow Rose Incense…….a Daist production.

    It’s all a Mystery. As he would say, ‘tcha’.

  39. Feel4God

    Some very enjoyable confessions and insights here – thank you!

    Bhagavan Adi Da has been my Spiritual Master most of my life and though I could say much about the emotions that come up with His Physical Departure, I know that He has been preparing His devotees for this inevitability since the early teaching years. And so I feel Him ever more… though I still miss Him greatly.

    He has only ever wanted to include all beings in His Embrace. He has always loved us, always taught us, always moved us to transcend all arising by yielding everything to Him – this is His Guru Function and will always be whether physically present or not.

    For many of us, His Presence can be seen to emanate from His photographs – this is what I initially noticed having also been originally touched by Sri Ramana Maharshi’s photographs in my search for truth in my teens. And then, after reading Adi Da’s The Knee of Listening, this heart-understanding was confirmed that I was in the Presence of the Divine. Having spent many years in His physical Company, I can only prostrate in deepest gratitude for That which He continually Gifts us with – His very Self.

    For those amongst us posting here who criticize Adi Da (and even all great Realizers) and who actually think they can realize the Acausal Reality without the Grace of the Realizer, I suggest that they are trying to raise themselves up by their own bootstraps. No amount of conditional struggle, whether it be full of effort or so-called effortless, will ever realize the Non-Conditional.

    And to those who feel they can simply call Adi Da a charlatan, given all that He has written, spoken, and created:

    I would very much appreciate your posting a link to your picture, and let our hearts confirm your own depth of understanding to be seen in your eyes and felt in your presence. Such depth is a necessary attribute you would have in order to make such absolutely judgmental statements about any great realizer.

  40. NC

    Ellen, I appreciated your post, and believe me I’ve felt as you have many times. I’m not trying to make you wrong, and trying to make me sound right would be ridiculous. I can feel your intelligence and discrimination.
    All I am saying, is that I am grieving the loss of his physical form, but grateful that I can still feel His Grace.
    I turned away from Him years ago, but he never let me go. Not because he was attached to me, but because he saw that moment I understood, and was free.
    I don’t know where to go from here. It seems I’ve been catapolted to another reality after his passing. I can only be present.

  41. NC

    Honest Question I respectfully post this article from the Fijian times.
    Adi Da dies
    Sunday, November 30, 2008

    Adi Da Samraj, 69, the leader of a spiritual community based at Naitauba in Lau, has died at his home on the island.

    Born in the United States, Adi Da established Naitauba as his principal teaching retreat in 1983 and became a Fiji citizen 10 years later in 1993.

    Matt Wilson, a spokesperson for the Naitauba Trust said Adi Da’s followers from many countries around the world would continue to maintain Naitauba as a centre for quiet study and contemplation for those who come there.

    Courses at the Naitauba retreat focus on Adi Da’s teachings of spiritual self-realisation, tolerance, respect, the unity of humanity, world peace and cooperation.

    Mr Wilson said Adi Da wrote many books about his beliefs.

    He also encouraged his students to study the world’s great religious traditions.

    Adi Da was a legal renunciate, who owned no personal possessions.

    Mr Wilson says Naitauba is a significant contributor to the economy of the Lau Group.

    “It provides employment and contributes to social and educational causes including scholarships for students in the Lau and Cakaudrove provinces.”

  42. NC

    Honest Question, I would be a fool to claim I was enlightened…but is it wrong to confess love?
    Do you assume that everyone who loves Da is a cultish blowhard? That would be as ridiculous as saying all christians are fundamentalists.

  43. Wizard Baldour

    With all due respect, Who died. What appears and disappears is not the eternal Now and non physical Self. That which is ever present is still so. No grief. Just relief. Birth, storylines and death are transitory concepts and trails like the tail of a comet. Be the sky..

  44. Stuart

    Michael Says:
    > Those who have not embraced Adi Da then go about
    > expressing their negativity.

    Many people have not embraced Adi Da. Just as many people don’t embrace Jesus, or Zeus, or George Bush. If “not embracing” someone is equated with “negativity,” then everyone in the world is expressing negativity.

    > These apparently opposing positions will not come together,
    > and, therefore, any attempts of one side to convince the
    > other are utterly futile.

    Different people have different experiences and perspectives. In forums like this, we share our unique viewpoints with each other. If we listen and communicate sincerely, there’s something to be learned from exchanging our perspectives.

    The other alternative is to cling only to our own views, and reject anything different as “negativity.” This greatly reduces the chance of learning anything from others. Still, we’re always learning from any human communication, and surely such discussions have some chance of broadening our minds, regardless of how tightly we initially hold to the idea that considering the views of others is futile.

    Feel4God Says:
    > For many of us, His Presence can be seen to emanate from
    > His photographs

    Whenever we look at a photograph of someone else, we get some sort of feeling about the person. One option is to insist that the feelings we get are undeniable truth. A more humble option is to realize that when we look at the photo, our reaction is a reflection of our own feelings, our own beliefs, ideas, and expectations.

    When you look at a person or a photograph and get some idea of who the other person is… it’s a huge, unsubstantiated, and unnecessary leap to insist that your idea is an absolute Truth.

    > No amount of conditional struggle, whether it be full of effort
    > or so-called effortless, will ever realize the Non-Conditional.

    Cultivating a desire to “realize the Non-Conditional” is one way to go. Another possibility is to attend to the truth that’s always already appeared, right in front of you, in this very moment.

    > I would very much appreciate your posting a link to your
    > picture, and let our hearts confirm your own depth of
    > understanding to be seen in your eyes

    Police detectives can look into someone’s eyes and get a intuition of whether they’re guilty. Even the best detectives are frequently wrong. Poker players look into each other’s eyes to decide if they’re bluffing. Even the best poker players frequently get it wrong.

    If you’re claiming that you can look into someone’s eyes and know with absolute certainty what they do or don’t understand, I’d say you’re over-estimating the infallibility of your speculations. Besides which, why is it important to judge the mind-state of others, whether through gazing at their photos or through other techniques? Isn’t it possible that examining one’s own mind is sufficient?

    Stuart

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

  45. Former Follower and Critic

    Of course the Da devotees will continue the same canned rhetorical tactics to try and undermine critics who are simply reporting their own insights and experiences. And their are two sides to a coin, but if the group is not what it appears, devotional blindness is not spiritual superior to sound criticism. Criticizing Da is claimed to be the same as criticizing all great Realizers–but it is ok for Da to claim only he attained the so-called highest stage not other Realizers who were not fully enlightened according to him. The truth is it is only Da that is being criticized as not being Realized, not these great Realizers. Da is not widely recognized as a great Realizer despite what is claimed, and so there is no reason critics should assume it. And employing the old rhetorical trick Da himself used of claiming critics only reflect on themselves, as Da did when condemned by Hindu authorities for his distortion of the dharma, only works if you do not investigate Da thoroughly. They claim that ordinary mortals are in no position to judge Da, and gloss over the rejection of Da’s claims by his former teachers, and his isolation and deliberate avoidance of meeting living recognized figures like Nisagadatta and Ammachi who indirectly criticized his claims. They do not acknowledge that only a relatively small number of those who became devotees from long ago are still involved because there comes a point for many when the rationalizations no longer work even despite the leelas and shakti effects which are after all just kundalini based and not proof of enlightenmen. And they do not admit that unlike for example Realizers like Ramana and others who have a public life, outside of an inner circle most followers have only second hand knowledge of events and are only repeating what they are told. Even more precarious is the postion of those who have read books and seen videos and felt the presence and use that to judge Da but have not taken time to see by actual engagement that the results in practice prove that the tree itself is not producing sound fruit despite enthusiastic claims otherwise. That is not to say that there is not much to appreciate about Da, but he is also the epitome of Narcissus in spiritual drag who demanded devotional depedency, and a part time hedonist who ruined his health long ago who finally died prematurely of a massive heart attack despite endless pontificating on health and life extension. And, though a great writer and speaker, what he said did not reflect his own state but what he inspired to be and to convince others that he was, nor have many of his prophecies made in grander times proven to come true.

  46. NC

    In my mind, Wizard Baldour I know your words are true, and often times experience is showing it to be true, but sometimes when I see a picture of him, I feel saddened that I will never see that particular vehicle animated with His Bliss again. It is a necessary and perfectly natural transition that has happened, but still I feel the loss of it….as do I feel the gain. It seems that I’m closer to “Him” now.
    I think it’s natural to grieve our loved ones for a time, even though there is the reality that there is no death, and no one to really die. It’s just applying the yoga of this to a life that is everchanging. Attachment does bring suffering, but it is also just one of the things we all have to transcend from moment to moment.
    That being said. I’m cutting myself a break. A little twinge of grief, in the midst of gratitude seems human enough to me.

  47. NC

    Former follower, and critic, how do you know that what you say is true? It is only your perception, and while it is a valid one, can you really discard the experiences of others absolutely?

  48. wes

    Dear All,

    Just happened upon this site for the first time.
    Looking for company in this poignant moment.

    Have been a formal devotee of Adi Da for 36 years.
    Of course, I am deeply touched by this passing .

    It is a very intimate and personal choice to accept the
    guru-devotee relationship.
    Just like any profound relationship , it is uniquely meaningful to the ones involved.
    We all need love and deep meaning in our lives.
    It is important to respect how that may work out in the circumstance of any one’s life.

    I have struggled with my own motives to have others choose
    the circumstance I have chosen…and finally understanding that this was dis-respectful on my part…

    What seems to work , peacefully and happily, is when I exercise respect and curiosity for the deeply meaningful choices of others.
    It is much more interesting, enjoyable, and intimate to be curious and admire the great process at work in any one’s life.
    Then I can respectfully cooperate to further peace , positive growth, well-being and creativity.
    There are great paradoxes in appearing here for all of us.
    There are always apparent limits to note in all of us.
    There are inevitable limits to any point of view…and yet the truth is also there in any point of view.

    I am feeling forward into the light of what is ultimately unknown .
    Adi Da impressed me with the sense that the unknown is bright , love-blissful, and sacredly beautiful beyond limit.
    Not to be feared.

    He teaches me to behold the divine reality in the form of all.
    To love and serve that truth humbly and respectfully.
    To bow to what is great and be unburdened of my suffering
    and the sense of separation.
    To love life and surrender fear of life and death.
    To honor the truth in all beings.
    To be responsible for my choices.
    I am so grateful.
    I am mourning a bit.
    Yet consciousness is bright.

    Let us all cooperate to manifest a more tolerant and peaceful world .

    Much Love,
    Wes

  49. Feel4God

    @ Stuart – A picture alone may or may not work for some people to recognize their Master. In my case, I also had to read Adi Da’s literature, so as I stated in my post, “after reading Adi Da’s The Knee of Listening, this heart-understanding was confirmed that I was in the Presence of the Divine.”

    It was only after studying many other traditions and practicing some of them that I even found Adi Da, so I was not totally naive spiritually, nor was I basing my decision to take up His Way solely on something I felt about His picture.

    I appreciate what you say about how egos can hide whether they are lying from detectives, etc. However, no ego can hide deep enough away to not have it show up in their eyes and/or the feeling of their being. The heart instantly recognizes egoity in another – and that self-consciousness will rear its ugly head sooner or later. In fact, the first few years of my approach to Bhagavan Adi Da, I actually hoped to find egoity somewhere in His eyes, etc., because the practice was very offensive to my ego! So I looked at Him under many many circumstances of every possible nature, very up close and personal (like a few feet away for endless hours) – but never found Him to “lose it” to egoity. No self-consciousness under ANY circumstance. So I remained to this day…

    And so on that note, as far as requesting a picture of those people who are just attacking Adi Da as a charlatan, etc., this is one way to help determine the depth of their own being/realization. For to criticize a Master of any greatness, one should at least be as great – at least that is how I see it.

  50. Trip

    Adi Da was the first Guru I came in contact with but he did not awaken me. No, I was awakened by a few words that grabbed me from an opened book as I passed by it in the bedroom of Wizard Baldour. It was a picture book containing brief excerpts of the teachings of Ramana Maharshi. Ramana Maharshi and the Wizard modeled pure beingness for me – with nobody home. To be in the presence of one so dissolved is the ultimate gift. It is the direct experience of who we are. Without this gift it is difficult to realize the truth.

    Ego sees ego and as one who often likes to carry his bags on the train, I saw a lot of ego in Adi Da. He seemed very preoccupied with his own divinity. While I had no trouble acknowledging it, I wondered why he bothered. Others, more complete in their surrender than I, were able to see beyond the ego and into the pure beingness of Adi Da – and hence their own.

    Being the instrument of awakening for only one other human being is a tremendous gift. So we should be grateful for Adi Da. On the other hand, we should not ignore his very human failings. For those of you feeling lost by his physical absence may I suggest a look/rereading of the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi? There is sweetness and loving grandfather and light and unbroken compassion in that humble man. When it comes to teachers, it is clear you can only trust the ones who want nothing from you.

    peace, love, and everlasting awareness…

    Trip

  51. NC

    In regards to Samaraj Adi Da, the grief I feel is hard to describe. Mostly I feel grateful for my time with him. Make no mistake, I could never be a student in the way I was before. I’ve made a lot of choices that have helped me grow out of that childishness. …but being his devotee is an integral part of who I am….and in spite of all my “criticisms” and concerns about Him, my involvement with the community, I deeply love Him. Perhaps I will never understand what he represents, but there has been no one in my life that has conveyed such beauty to me.
    I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything anymore…and though I know in my heart there really is no death, I grieve that I will never again see the bliss animated through his physical form which leaves me to only transcend the final throes of my attachment to Him. I’ve called Him a madman, I’ve called Him a saint, I’ve called him a hedonist, and a trickster. I’ve called myself a sheep for following him, but now I yearn for him, and can only find him, in everything and everyone.
    And so my friend, I see Him now as I write, mad with Love, and longing to be connected to something beyond my ordinary limitation. Anything short of that is unbearable.
    I am the God He has come to serve, just as you and your beautiful families are.
    Of course, I’m not saying that he is your guru, I’m just saying that I am choosing to see him now in everyone and everything. Not “him” as Franklin Jones, or Samaraj Adi Da, but him as bliss, and life itself. I’ve been catapulted into a different awareness. I hope you don’t mind that I write this way. I just felt that I had to be truthful about my experience for the sake of our friendship.
    I need to shed that feeling of complaint I had about him. I think I have made choices that have allowed me to become a discriminating woman in the past few years, so as a result my relationship to Samaraj Adi Da changed, and I didn’t even really know it till his physical passing. I went to the santuary and felt the strength and happiness of my being. He was no longer my father, but the friend that had revealed not only Himself to me, but my particular form of narcissus.
    When I was a student, I served his sanctuary at the Fear No More Zoo. I got to visit there, and I remember how truly happy I had been there, and what a privilege it was to have done that. I received many gifts from my involvement with the community, and I may never be able to be a cookie cutter devotee (if there is one) but I will help my friends there during this time.

  52. blisscake

    I am in Fiji on retreat now and was a few 100 meters from Adi Da the time of His leaving the body, We Buried Him yesterday. There are few words to describe the heartbreak and love I feel for Adi Da, who ever He was. We had just been documenting Him on film in the last six weeks (how is that for timing) and also the extraordinary spiritual process He was/is taking people through in ‘transmission sittings’ here, we had the grace of interviewing people as they came from the Sittings with Him, and again and again they would utter words of utter transformation and Bright revelation of prior unity, I along with many others who have flocked to be here now, are being brightened and overwhelmed with His perfect bliss touch, I feel Him opening up the head and melting down into the body, the air on this Island is thick with His presence, the ongoing vigil of His passing is like entering a Bright heart opening realm..
    i have read these responses..I share the praise and love and other beautiful offerings of a Master who will be recognised more in the coming years for the unbelievable and ignored massive wealth He left the world.. far beyond the humble abodes he lived in on this island ! (marble palaces what the f ?)
    His unending insistance on The Reality as opposed to our reality like a great lion who would roar and bite off your head if it would be 1 step closer to your liberation.. and then in the next moment laugh and make a joke…
    He played in the places that we fear the most… and He won… He already Had and that is the point.
    But there will always be the shout of outrage and opposition a perfect reflection of every egos massive defiance to Brightness itself.. mine included..
    because as He so wonderfully put it.. Your Objections to anything don’t mean shit !!! Reality is always already the case..

    nothing changed when He left the body.. except the revelation of brightness the feeling of His unmistakable touch and warm embrace became all the more potent and something in this mind blowing process feels like it has ultimate importance but right now I am to mentally mashed with the moment to grasp what it is.. but take this with you for free, on the day that Adi Da passed he put His pen down on His master work the Altheon… and here is just one line from this massive work ;

    The total pattern of the universe Is, now and forever hereafter, the Incarnation Vehicle of My Divine Avataric Self-Emergence, here and everywhere.

    and if anyone wants to put that in a pipe and smoke it be my guest.. but He was not playing by any of our games wether we like it or not. and the proof is not in the whys and wherefores…it is in the utter undeniable unending LOVE.

    with more love then I could possable self generate ..blisscake

  53. NC

    In addition to my remark I would like to confess, that I have been criticized by Samaraj Adi Da about my tendency to “help” rather than be an example of spiritual practice. I finally get It Beloved. My only true help to anyone is feeling beyond my limitation.

  54. Stuart

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    > Criticizing Da is claimed to be the same as criticizing all
    > great Realizers–but it is ok for Da to claim only he attained
    > the so-called highest stage not other Realizers who were not
    > fully enlightened according to him. The truth is it is only Da
    > that is being criticized as not being Realized, not these great
    > Realizers. Da is not widely recognized as a great Realizer

    I’ve done lots of work with computers (as an MS Excel expert). When people come to me with their computer problems, I don’t waste time telling them that I’m a great Expert, or comparing myself to other Excel Experts, living or dead. I just fix their problems, and once they see that it works, then they’re happy.

    Some spiritual teachers operate like this also. People come to them wanting to understand themselves, and explore how to live their lives and relate to others. The teachers point them to practices and inquiries, and encourage them use these pointers to find truth for themselves. None of this requires the teacher to make any claims about their own greatness, what a wonderful “Realizer” they are, or to judge any other teachers living or dead.

    So the important issue to me is… what, if anything, about Da’s life, words, actions, and death… is helpful to any of us as we live our actual lives just now? I see that as a useful line of inquiry, and everyone can try and see for themselves whether they find any of Da’s words etc to be useful. The whole issue of what a “Realizer” is, of whether or not Da was one, of what other living or dead teachers were superior or inferior… all of this is a different issue entirely (and for me personally, not the issue I find interesting).

    Also… we can exercise care re how much weight we put on whether or not a teacher is “widely recognized.” Following a crowd, believing in things because they’re widely recognized by others, can sometimes be a useful strategy. But we can also look into things independently, seeking whatever’s most helpful to our particular life situation. In that case, we examine what best works for ourselves, and it becomes irrelevent whether or not masses of other people recognize it.

    NC Says:
    > I think it’s natural to grieve our loved ones for a time

    I don’t see any problem with grieving. Some people have the idea that life ought to be non-stop bliss. They try to ignore or deny grief and sadness in themselves, and criticize it in others.

    All of this is rooted in the initial idea: “I want to be happy all the time.” That want can be questioned also. Maybe it’s possible to keep a clear mind, in which it’s no problem to be happy sometimes and grieving sometimes, healthy sometimes and sick sometimes, alive for a while and then dead. A clear mirror reflects each moment as it is, beautiful or ugly, without making it into a problem.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

  55. honest questions

    Thank you NC for answering my question regarding what will become of the communities that Adida lead.

    While I respect your and the rights of others to believe as you find correct according to your spiritual calling; I would also be a liar to say I can dismiss many of the stories, reports, and lawsuits regarding the behavior of Adida in the years his own teachings evolved.

    I have met many that follow the teaching of Adida, some have been very helpful and open willing to discuss the teachings with extreme openess, and they also have been able to answer the ‘harder’ questions without the ‘failsafe’ terms such as before mentioned, that ‘only those that wish enlightenment’ or ‘only those that release the ego’ will be able to understand.

    Now, in regards to your reply to my post—

    No, I do not think that all that follow Adida, anymore than all that follow more commonly accepted and known faiths are churlish–but it seems that some do exert far more ‘ego’ and have an ire of superiority that transcends any message or teaching they claim to understand.

    I do not believe Adida was a great man; I do however believe that he had many great people that believed in him–so any greatness he had in this life is only due to those that openly, and honestly not only followed their hearts spiritually, but where also willing to follow their hearts for those that took a different spiritual path, befriending them, as well as respecting their personal journey.

    So for those that are mourning the loss of Adida, honestly, my sincere condolences; and thank you for those that were willing to share your innermost feelings; however, as still as much as I respect your rights to religious freedom, I still have serious questions about the actions and behaviors of Adida.

  56. Wizard Baldour

    I-Dolls, Deification & Role of Toto

    Deifications and I-Dolls are constantly sticking their heads up in the ocean of Now. They appear in many incredible forms, not just Da. They are a part of the mortal and mystical drama. Most are simply ego trips when propped up by desire doership. They are projections from the veneer of the mind. They can be awesomely seductive and trap attention. This is not to say that sincere saints and sages are not worthy of veneration. The true sage, however, will exhibit genuine equality of the highest common denomunator and expose deification for what it is.

    Many I-Dolls are situated around the very well of our being. Don’t be fooled because the water you drink is pure. The water in the well is the same for everyone. Some set up toll booths to sell you, you. Usually it is in the form of a secret method or secret school of the esoteric arts with hierarchies, vows, levels, mantras, memberships, God squads, gawking wannabes… they are all the same. It is carrot stick quackery. Don’t be fooled! Drink freely from your own Well.

    In the story of the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy’s pet, Toto, pulls the curtain back on the Wizard at just the perfect time to reveal an extraordinarily ordinary Being. Toto is a fact of life. Toto happens. A blessing.

    We are all One. Toto is making sure equality is recognized. We are all unmasked at the perfect time. Welcome Toto when he appears. He comes in infinite forms to level the playing field. Surrender. Allow Toto to pull the curtain back. Understand how Toto’s perfect action empowers Dorothy, the Tin man, the Lion and the Scarecrow and restores love to the Wizard. Empowering others as thy Self is a true guru. They are extraordinarily ordinary. Love is Oneness. Nobody is a guru. Everyone is the Guru. This is the Truth. This is Wizardry. This is Love.

  57. shitstick

    I wish Da peace in his transition.
    I was, and am, enormously critical of him.
    The fundamental truth simply is.
    He didn’t discover it. I don’t feel he illuminated it particularly skillfully. I don’t think his writings will last – they’re not very good. I could be wrong (look at the Mormons). I think he was often deeply confused, and often confused others.
    But the truth is. He couldn’t obscure it. He couldn’t create it. He lived his life in the manner of his choosing or destiny. It’s not the right way for many others – certainly not for me. But you can’t really call it the wrong way either. It was his way. Not your way.
    If you found him helpful, excellent. Your life will bear the fruits of your insight, sweet, sour, or under-ripe. At best, by any standard, he was a (crooked) finger pointing at the moon in your own eye. Don’t mistake the finger, the moon, and your own eyes.

  58. NC

    “I” have no fingers pointed at my crooked eye.
    The moon has taken me in. I rest in the one that pointed the way.

  59. Jerry Post author

    MODERATION OF COMMENTS
    All comments are moderated. There is only one moderator. Sometimes he sleeps or works. Therefore, hours may pass before you see your comment. Please send your comment only once, and wait for it to appear. Unmoderated, you would see spam, haters, and sickos. Thanks for your understanding.
    –Jerry Katz nonduality.com

  60. BMI

    He was an important part of my spiritual development in the 70’s and 80’s. Being in his company informed my practice, even to this day. And even though I ceased being a formal student many years ago his presence was always felt and those teachings, that I found useful, will always be a part of me.

    Great Sorrow at his passing.

  61. White the Dark Space Thin

    As a former devotee, I have the utmost reverence and respect for Adi Da Samraj. He opened me up to a love that allowed me to see and feel beyond my “self” . . . he also opened me up to confusion and disenchantment . . . no matter, the universe clapped loud with thunder upon his bodily death and what remains is Consciousness Itself . . . this is what we are all responsible for in evolving . . .

    Adi Da Samraj was also famous for saying: Dead Gurus Don’t Kick Ass . . . I wonder what is next for those that may continue their search . . .

    you might want to check out: http://www.enlightennext.org

  62. SavagePilgrim

    Da was arguably the most innovative and compelling exponent of the non-dual tradition in the 20th century. He was truly a remarkable Being, despite the controversy surrounding him…I am saddened by his passing…

  63. LongTime

    I’ve read twenty to thirty of his books in over twenty years. Started in my early 20’s, (male). Have some videos and audio tapes too. He was a great man who accomplished much. Incredibly profound thinker, very insightful. Great critic of society and conventional religion.

    I felt his best work was when he talked normally in the 80’s. In the 90’s and on to the end, he would always say, “By the Only by Me Revealed Divine Way of Adidam” almost every other sentence in his discourses.

    Seemed a little pretentious in the end, stating he was the one and only 7th stage realizer. I found little difference between his level of realization and Ramana Maharshi’s.

    Maharshi never claimed to be a master or guru. Said once he realized the truth he saw that it was like he woke up from a dream and everybody else in the dream had been his projection and creation so he saw no difference between himself and other selves.

    Adi Da Samraj always encouraged his devotees to submit to him which is really not a western thing

    There is however a tradition of guru devotion in India and eastern cultures which might be more appropriate for easterners as westerners tend to pervert this method. It always seems to get a little twisted.

    For those who were attuned to him maybe his always telling his devotees to turn to him in every moment of self contraction may have had it’s merit.

    When I found out he passed at only 69 I was a little suprised and spontaneously became silent with head bowed for a couple of minutes.

    I learned a lot from him and I will miss this crazy, profound individual.

    I am thankful for his presence in my life.

    Adi Da…

  64. Another ex-devotee and critic

    Having spent the better part of my adult life (20+ years) in the community and having been gone several years I feel moved to write something for others to read.

    I loved the man as a man loves God and after discovering that I, and others, had been systematically lied to, I left.

    To be sure, there were warning signs along the way that I chose to ignore because I was so convinced by the sheer brilliance and power of the man, Adi Da. He was the most impressive individual I have ever seen to date.

    I can only summarize the whole tour of duty as a spiritual rape. The cover-ups and cultic mind-set were, to me, a most extreme form of betrayal of trust of sincere seekers of truth.

    In the case of Adi Da, we had a truly gifted man that suffered a from an ultimate degree of Narcissistic personality disorder and surrounded himself with hundreds of enablers.

    It took me a long time to work through the rage but now I see that he was truly suffering a terrible delusion and his students were feeding it for their own personal reasons. It was, and still is a crazy situation.

    I don’t know what will happen to the cult now. I’m certain that many will leave since the main attraction is gone forever. But the hard-core will remain along with a few that don’t know what else to do with their lives.

    I was under Adi Da’s spell and I found that after I realized the lie, it was a rude awakening but my life didn’t end.

    His death was the only escape from his infirmity and now others may have the chance to get on with something real in their lives beyond this fantasy.

    I know how some devotees will take this communication because I was once a true believer. I would have posted my name but since I have had the experience of being threatened by one of these fanatic followers I have chosen not to.

    Only time will tell what happens to the rest of the followers and the millions of dollars in the church’s trust accounts. I suppose there will be the customary jockying for power when a cult leader dies.

    I hope there can be a time when the truth is no longer suppressed in this group of people and real awareness can take the place of make believe.

  65. NC

    With my tears,
    I watered the creeper of love that I planted;
    Now the creeper has grown spread all over,
    and borne the fruit of bliss.
    The churner of the milk churned with great love.
    When I took out the butter,
    no need to drink any buttermilk.
    I came for the sake of love-devotion;
    seeing the world, I wept. ”

    – Mirabai

  66. shiva

    i was adi da’s devotee for 15 years and i served him intimately (spending up to 8 hours daily with him) for several years. just as an indicator that i might know what i am talking about.

    adi da was clearly not a realized being. he was an amazing artist, no doubt (referring to his visual and written art) and a being with charisma.

    i find it amazing that he is described here as an “compelling exponent of the non-dual tradition”. that he was most certainly not. his writings (that which attracted me to him in the first place) are amazing and could be – at superficial glance – characterized as “non-dual” but his actions, his rules, his daily conduct showed no LIVING understanding of non-duality at all. he was a despot with a HUGE ego, just full of himself. and btw – i am not one of those that received harsh criticism by him and ran away. he usually treated me well (as i said i had many hundreds of hours of direct interaction with him), probably because he needed certain skills for my service.

    he was VERY attached to personal gratifications, never got tired of mentioning that he was “the greatest realizer to ever walk this earth”, completely depleted his organization of money and using this money for utterly ludicrous things like buying dozens of the most expensive watches, or porcelain dolls, or disney art. he spent many millions of dollars on his personal collections. i would not have an issue with this if his organization had been rich. but it wasn’t. in fact, it was so poor that MANY of his devotees on his fijian island suffered from malnutrition because there was no money to buy decent food. i spent many years on that island. i know what i am talking about. an act of love? you tell me…

    i have met a few REAL non-duality teachers since i left adi da’s organization. sailor bob adamson, john wheeler, jeff foster, to name a few. there is a difference like night and day between those and their teachings and adi da and his teaching. you can’t really compare them, so vast are the differences.

    just the fact that adi da stresses again and again that he is the first and only 7th stage realizer. in other words he is more enlightened than enlightened. even if one accepts the concept of enlightenment, which most non-dual teachers do not, how can it be that one is more enlightened than others? either you are or you are not. how can one be more pregnant than pregnant? adi da’s ego just needed those glamorizations. also, nobody EVER realized anything in his company. that was his constant criticism of his devotees, even of his most intimate ones, the two ruchiradamas. of course, it was always and only the fault of his devotees. but it was his own admission that NOBODY realized ANYTHING after more than 30 years of being exposed to the greatest realizer! ridiculous!

    he engaged in all kinds of spiritual experiments. like his special retreats or his “silver hall sittings”. but there was a constant pattern of always terminating the experiments before anyone could expect any “results”. in other words he always avoided and failed the proof of being a real guru (if such a thing exists, but according to him it did). he ALWAYS did that in the 15 years i was his devotee. and so it was with his death. utterly ordinary, completely unexpected, and coming at a time where his organization and the world (according to him) needed him most. he bailed out yet again, in his final act!
    truly amazing! he was in the middle of doing his art work, which according to him was so utterly important and very dear to him. no to belittle his art. he truly was an amazing artist! but if you know him and his relationship to his art, it is unthinkable that he would leave the body in the middle of it – if he had any say in leaving his body, which is clear to me he had not.

    to sum it up:
    adi da was not your ordinary john doe. he was an amazing artist. he was a man of charisma. but he was no realizer and had no right to teach anything spiritual. he had a HUGE ego and leaves a depleted organization in a very desolate state. the chapter adidam is closed. many have moved on already and many (if not most) of his current devotees will move on soon. luckily, there are plenty of REAL non-dual teachers out there.

  67. Former Follower and Critic

    Da predicted from his earliest teaching period that he would be seen as a paradox, and he rapidly became a polarizing figure, recognized as a genius with a palpable shakti ability, but not necessarily as Realized nor widely recognized as the Avatar he considered himself to be. Da was what he was and did what he did. And he did indulge hedonistic tendencies during his life and he make the unprecedented claims about himself, including the later Avataric Emergence claim and an early statement in the beginning that those who ended their relationship with him went back to zero, and he was rightly accused of contradictions in teaching and behavior. It is the polarizing interpretations of all that which result in the polarized views of him, not just ego resistance, as Da devotees tend to claim just like their guru did.

    I happen to believe that Da was telling the truth when he said:

    “At least that is the way it seems to me. What do I know? This could just be an aberration. Must be. No one agrees with me. I’ve never met anyone who agreed with me. I’ve talked to many people. I’ve talked to many teachers, and none of them agrees with me. They all tell me that I’m mad, that I’m undeveloped. So that must be so. If you consult the usual books they won’t tell you such a thing. I’ve read them all myself…I’ve never listened to anyone. Perhaps I should have!”

    And I and some others believe that that explains the paradox of Da and his life, his genius and his failings, in his own words, far clearer than anything someone could make up.

    To clarify a comment above, I do not discount the experiences of others regarding Da, I certainly had my share of interesting samadhis and can understand how Da devotees view them. Da devotees will find confirmation for their beliefs in those experiences where I do not. I do not agree with their interpretation or the underlying assumptions on which they are based. Adidam is essentially a guru bhakti group that uses Da and his particular teachings, rather than mainstream non-dualism, as the yardstick to measure and assess spirituality which affects their interpretation and the view of critics as just resistant egoists. And those who stay long enough tend to adopt this view and see things and experiences through that perspective, including the significance of experiences, and his Avataric claims and assessments of spiritual figures, and the rampant modifications he made to his teaching and claims since he began teaching a small group in 1971.

    As an example of how this process works and why the unusual polarization exists around Da, I want to highlight a few statements from the Da devotee “blisscake” from Fiji.

    “I along with many others who have flocked to be here now, are being brightened and overwhelmed with His perfect bliss touch, I feel Him opening up the head and melting down into the body, the air on this Island is thick with His presence, the ongoing vigil of His passing is like entering a Bright heart opening realm”.

    The presumption is that this bhakti experience of a bliss touch opening the head and melting down into the body, what Adidam now considers the unique and highly advanced Thumbs Samadhi and a previously unrevealed short cut to the highest, non dual realization, is not just a charismatic if blissful kundalini shakti effect but validation of Da’s claims. Critics consider the emphasis on these experiences which devotees view as proof validating Da’s unprecedented claims about himself, and the general guru bhakti and bliss based emphasis of practice in Adidam rather than traditional non-dualism, as a problematic distortion of mainstream non-dualism.

    “But there will always be the shout of outrage and opposition a perfect reflection of every egos massive defiance to Brightness itself.. mine included..because as He so wonderfully put it.. Your Objections to anything don’t mean shit !!! Reality is always already the case.”

    Challenging the asssumption of Da’s realization and claimed Avataric status, though not his genius, and criticizing his many controversial actions that alienated so many, has nothing to do with what is objecting to what is already the case. But this statement does demonstrate why assumptions are unchallenged and the problematic aspects of what has become public is still only a fraction of the totality of problematic aspects of the group, because such things are considered defiance to the Divine itself.

    “On the day that Adi Da passed he put His pen down on His master work the Altheon… and here is just one line from this massive work ; The total pattern of the universe Is, now and forever hereafter, the Incarnation Vehicle of My Divine Avataric Self-Emergence, here and everywhere. and if anyone wants to put that in a pipe and smoke it be my guest.”

    Da devotees are free to assume that Adi Da is the historically unique, Divine Avataric Self-Emergence, and that the universe is his Incarnation Vehicle, as he claimed. Others can legitimately question whether this radically new doctrine and its implications about traditional Realizers and realization being inferior is really a non-dualist position or that of a guru bhakti group instead, and an indication that Da was a flawed human being with limits as many former followers and critics assert. Despite Adidam attempts to link criticism of Da’s claims with criticism of the non-dualist Realizer tradition because they personally view Da as the epitome of the ultimate Realizer, there is nothing to suggest that those widely recognized as Realizers like Ramana Maharshi, Sri Nisargadatta (who responded to a question about Da’s teaching critically), or more historical figures like the Buddha would have supported Da’s claims or his behavior.

    None of this criticism alters the fact that a remarkable human being who influenced many to explore non-dualism even if many ultimately found him and his claims wanting has now passed. Nor will it change any minds of those already convinced. I simply hope to paint a broader picture of Da than offered only by devotees.

  68. wes

    Hi,

    It is becoming more clear as the days pass following this death.
    The guru-devotee relationship is a very personal matter.
    It is always a bit odd one way or another.

    Universal proclamations of truth are whatever they may seem to be to any individual. including the one proclaiming.
    One’s own personal experience is the only arbiter in the matter.
    It is good to see some appreciation mixed with the inevitable criticism in the entries above.

    I feel we have to trust the process of our own awakening and follow it where it may go.
    Each has a unique sense of Adi Da or anyone else .
    I have found Adi Da to be a perfect window- and a perfect mirror .

    I came to him out of a great need for peace of mind, guidance , and grace.
    This was given. This continues.
    I am grateful.

    The daily cutting edge – is to actually practice the way one has chosen and be transformed beyond fear and doubt.

    It is ultimately confusing when I try to describe with words,
    what is most simply available in the silence of being.
    For all his words, often apparently contradictory or confusing, Adi Da principally worked in silence.
    It is in silence that the truth of any of us is tested and found.

    ” Who could own the Holy brightness ?”
    Indeed.
    It is not owned.
    Each is responsible to find it, awaken to it , be it, as we may,
    ” In Place.”
    Eventually all find what they truly need where ever they may.
    Eventually all awaken to their true hearts desire.

    Time to meditate.

    It is well.

    Love,
    Wes

  69. blisscake

    Thanks critic for the feed back I will seriously ponder it in my mind so as to distract myself from dissolving into the portal of perfect Brightness…. hee hee

    or a wonderful Adi Da quote “you may be right but I am Happy”

    To me it is simple: you either know He is your Guru or you don’t, He is my Master and Has awakened me to a bright overwhelming and utterly freely given pure Love time and time again … as well as a never ending list of gifts of maturity and life transformations.. I love my Master.. He has proved over and over in this seeming body, what He says.. but i am not talking about the mental conceptual understanding.. but when by shear mysterious grace you find yourself dissolved in DA then His words are like melting forms of perfect clarity dissolving all mind about any damn thing… didn’t work for you.. well then maybe He is not your Master ..so what is the problem.. i just find the intensity of the critics so strong.. and yet all I have been given in the 14 odd years is incredable heart breaking Love and Gifts and many many friends, i don’t see any people with malnutrition.. !!! i see here on the island a group of inspiring devoted rather extraordinary people.. who like me know that Adi Da is their Guru… whatever its totally profound to be here at this time, the vigil continues and the deep deep bliss is pervading everything.. Adi Da had said that on His dropping the body there may well be stronger signs of His Siddhi.. it is definatly my and others here confessions… as i write this i am feeling Him pouring into the head from above.. as well as a blissfull energy pervading the whole island like we are in a cloud of MDMA gas !! and my friendly critic this may well be a kundalini phenominon but what the fuck do I care ! He is my Master who is bliss even with out a body !! He says it I say OK Master if you say so, because what the bugger is a kundalini anyway. or anything else for that matter ! kundalini curdled creamy.. and if this is spiritual rape then bring it on… because whatever shit this world is in..slowly grinding the dreamers into the shredder.. i am holding onto the form of the Bright one…the place where there is only the brightness felt as all pervading love bliss, where there is no percieved world or other..this shown to seeming me, not understood by me in any other mental terms.. just clearly and spontaniously (spelling not my thing) authenticated through the being, being undone in this perfect bright unity… and you want to get into a consideration about Adi Da as being something that you speculate Him to be !! what the F !! the whole world is full of that mindy bullshit… that is why He is my Master and not a book by my bed… what a absolute wonder.. what a wonder to be undone in perfect love without a damn qualification for it. felt as perfect all pervading bliss felt as everything that obviosly already was and now freely given with not even a body here !!! (still has not sunk in) I am a fraud and a mere mortal identified everyman.. addicted to every kind of bullshit and still… The Brightness, the overwhelming attractiveness of the Brightness, that Is DA Is and Is felt by heart… that (to me at least) is perfect. but if you want to call it kundalini then you are welcome !

    OK friends of The Bright One.. here is another utterance of perfection.. from Alethion

    14. I Am always dissolving (Myself, and all-and-All) in My own “Brightness”.

    15. This is What I do.

    16. This is What I am always doing.

    17. This doing is Who I Am.

    18. This is the Force and Nature of My Avatarically-Born, Avatarically Self-Transmitted, and Avatarically Self-Revealed Divine Company.

    19. I am not merely in the Divine State.

    20. I Am the Divine State—here and forever now.

    And, when the orb of “Brightness” rises
    in the midnight eye,
    all the rain of freedom falls upon
    the heart’s horizon—
    of pure Consciousness!

    So if you disagree with this.. prove it ! all questionairs have to be handed in by 2pm on tuesday sharp !

    sing it how it IS Beloved

    with more love that I could possibly self generate Blisscake

  70. Editor

    There are contrarian points of view about Adi Da held by many ex-devotees. After all, at least 90-95% of those who were devotees over the years faded away from close formal involvement with Adi Da, and the group never became large.

    The website at http://www.adidaarchives.org explores some alternative perspectives on Adi Da that those who are interested in the man should at least consider.

  71. NC

    It doesn’t make any difference to me if he was “crazy”, I still love Him.
    There are an infinite amount of ways to describe an apple, just are there are an infinite amount of ways to describe the divine.
    Accepting my guru as a madman, has helped me to see my own madness. My resistance to seeing it almost killed me, but now I know that real sin, is not being rested in the heart.

  72. Editor

    To Shiva: Thank you very much for your outstanding post and clear personal observations about the actual behavior of Adi Da, which did not even remotely reflect the kind of spiritual realization he wrote about in his books.

    Your experience matches that of many of us who spent years in the Community feeding the ego and desires of this talented but needy narcissist, Adi Da. We were worked to death and sucked dry of money and energy, with no regard as to the impact it had on US. It was all about HIM.

    What so many fail to do is separate the teachings from the teacher — like so many others, Da did not practice what he preached.

    Yet he was able to live an idyllic life where nearly all of his fantasies were fulfilled by preying on the hopes, fears, and PROJECTIONS of others who shared the mythology of “Frank as Da the God-Man” that became the foundation of our collective lives together.

  73. Feel4God

    @ blisscake – HAHAHAHAHAHA! That was very enjoyable! A green drink toast to one and all! ;)

    I practiced the non-duality teachings of Ramana Maharshi for several years, and my heart always recognized him as the Self of all. I enjoyed many meditations of deep peacefulness and silent inwardness, and became less and less “of this world” and more and more about meditation on the heart on the right – sometimes meditating eight hours a day.

    After these years of practice, someone gave me The Knee of Listening, and upon seeing Bhagavan Adi Da’s picture, I intuitively sensed this was a man of Truth. I read the book which further confirmed this, and went to see Him in Hollywood. In my very first sitting with Him, He gave me everything I was searching for and then some – including opening my heart on the right, which never happened in my earlier meditations on the source of the I-thought.

    It became utterly obvious in all kinds of ways that Adi Da is my Guru, my Lover, my Greatest Friend and Teacher – and my fullest recognition of Him is all He has ever wanted, for He continuously shows us that such direct recognition of the Unconditional is the only way that realization can occur.

    He has demonstrated to us over and over that no conditional means will ever cause realization of the Unconditional. This is the ultimate non-dual Truth, and Who He Is.

    However, teachings of non-duality are readily “understood” by the mind and can even allow for brilliant states of equanimity, cosmic awareness, heart on the right intuitions, etc. And it is this mind-based presumptuousness that Bhagavan has criticized me and many others for being advocates of the “talking school” of realization.

    How can one realize the Unconditional without recognizing the One Who Is the Unconditional, and thereby having the Unconditional Grant the Grace of realization whole bodily?

    Adi Da has always insisted on in-life, whole bodily enlightenment, and that the body-mind needs to be righted for such recognition/enlightenment. Without such a preparatory foundation, it is not possible to utterly recognize the Divine in every moment. Yes, the Divine can be intuited, even felt strongly, etc., etc., – but not realized utterly, absolutely, whole-bodily, altogether.

    It is the talking school advocates of non-duality that tend to think that such preparation and submission to a Guru is unnecessary because such advocates tend to be more mind-based, even wanting to exclude the body and whole bodily right life disciplines.

    Even Ramana Maharshi in reality was the Guru for his closest most serious followers. Bhagavan Adi Da is that One for me, and He has undermined much of what I would have spent years (even lifetimes) attempting to do given my “talking school” tendencies!

    Sheesh, even this post is too long! ;)

  74. NC

    Conventional thinking, and conventional constructs always lead to an endless circle of merry-go-round assertions and denials. You stand in the one place that “Samaraj Adi Da does, flawed, egoic, and absolutely perfect.
    Can you feel the freedom in that?

  75. NC

    I am so grateful that Feel4Good, and Blisscake have posted. I’ve been far away from spiritual practice for many years….but my heart never could give up Samaraj Adi Da. I have been feeling my relationship to Adi Da very strongly the past few days. Far from the group it has been a struggle to keep my equanimity. Your words are soothing to me now. I hope you keep posting. I’m praying for equanimity to keep me turning it over during this time….and reaching out to my friends in the community.

  76. SavagePilgrim

    Thanks to Shiva for his interesting (if disturbing) insight into the day to day life of Da. Da’s repeated claims to avatarship and reports of exploitation by community members always brought me to question him as an authentic realizer (Nityananda never did a thing to promote himself, yet ashrams sprouted in his midst as a result of the natural and spontaneous devotion of those around him).
    When I commented that Da was a compelling exponent of the nondual tradition I referred mainly to his writings, particularly those from the 70’s through the 80’s. I agree with LongTime, Da’s writings from the 90’s on are so thickly laden with his exclusive final avatar claims as to make them virtually unpalatable to me. But his writings, along with audio and video taped talks from the 70’s and 80’s, shows a person with keen insight into psychology and spirituality. What was also remarkable about Da’s transmissions during this time is that he remained consistent in his verbal/written teachings, did not engage in metaphysical platitudes and encouraged people to take responsibility for their lives here and now. To paraphrase Ken Wilber, one cannot afford to not at least be a student of Da’s written teachings.

  77. Conradg

    As another long-time devotee of Adi Da who became a critic of his limitations and delusions, I have to second the very insightful post from Shiva. Yet I also have to second my old friend Wes (how’s it going, dude? Great to hear from you!), that the relationship to the Guru is very personal, and on the strictly personal level no one else can really understand what is going on.

    On the personal level, I loved Adi Da every bit as much as any other devotee, every bit as much as my own wife and children, and I don’t regret that at all. You can’t regret love. But love doesn’t mean slavery or bondage, it means freedom, and eventually I came to see that freedom did not lie in the direction of endless bhakti devotion to Da and his organization. Love of anyone, or any object, or any conceptual teaching, is conditional, and leads to all kinds of problems and delusions. Da is not different in that regard. But as Nisargadatta once said, the only thing we experience in this world that is real is love, regardless of its object. In my time with Da I came to understand that love is real, but in a strange way I never grasped how it transcends objects until I gave up Da himself, and let him die to me. So in a very real sense I underwent his death in very personal terms several years ago. Adidam was already over for me, personally, so I don’t really feel any sadness now over news of his death, I just affirm the freedom I feel from any need to be dependent on him, or some “link” to him.

    When I was fifteen I had what was for me an extraordinary experience of Ramana Maharshi when a relative sent a photo of him to me from Ramanashram. Yet in the experience I became afraid, and had to pull back slightly, and realized I wasn’t ready to simply let go. I tried to understand Ramana’s written teachings, but frankly I could not, I was simply not ready or mature enough. I couldn’t grasp the point of self-enquiry. A year and a half later, I came across Da, and he captured both my heart and mind for almost thirty years. As that relationship dissolved, however, I was left alone, and I felt it was time to look at that. Eventually I was drawn to re-examine Ramana’s teachings, and finally they made sense to me, and seemed to reflect my state of mind, and I began to practice self-enquiry, and I began to see the subtle (and not-so-subtle) distinctions between Ramana’s approach and Da’s.

    It’s become rather obvious that Ramana’s approach is superior, but I must admit that in my case, without exploring the various failed approaches and ideas of Adi Da, I might never have exhausted myself to the point were Ramana’s teaching could finally come alive to me. So I have much to be grateful for in that, and am. The same love I felt for Adi Da is alive in me as the Self, not as an object, but as the very Being who is beyong every name and form, including that of Da, Conrad, Wes, and everyone else, but who is eternally alive in our hearts. So in spite of all Da’s mistakes and indulgences, the real limitations I’ve had to overcome, and still have to overcome, are my own. For a while, we shared those limitations together in Adidam, and now we must transcend them wherever we are, however we ended up. Good, bad, or ugly, we are all going to follow Da into death alone, and so we have to deal with ourselves alone first and foremost. Everything else, including Adidam and every other religion, is prologue at best.

  78. Feel4God

    NC, our loss is beyond any consolation – that we will never see His physical form again here, nor hear Him laugh or speak. But if anyone is laughing about all of this, it is Bhagavan Adi Da! From a very old talk called “The Baptism of Immortal Happiness”:

    “I am here to Teach you out of this un-Happiness. Poor me! I will be laughing about this for countless ages, as I have been laughing about it since eternal time.”

    “I am full of all space-time. All Bliss, all Wonder, all the Marvels of Being are in my Being. I know it absolutely and you do not. All miracles are potent in my Heart. I come here to give you everything without the slightest reluctance. I am not here to tell you about some asshole ego. I am here to Wonder and Marvel with you about the Great One.”

    “There is this Great One. This Great One is totally known to me. This Great One is myself. I am the Self of God. I have no doubt in me about it. All miracles are evident in me. All time is obvious to me. It seems Great to me, but you poor people who cannot submit yourselves to God, you are the ones that I must Teach. How do I Teach you? By countering your self-contraction, your reluctance to submit to Divine Intoxication.”

    “My entire life has been involved with countering the un-Happiness of people, and I am profoundly weary of it. I cannot tell you how weary I am of it. I have always thought that I would die any day because I am so weary, so tired, so bewildered by this resistance to God. This world is a terrible place. Therefore, I do everything, because I have nothing to lose. I have nothing to gain by action; therefore, I have nothing to lose by action. I do everything to make a picture for Man. Everything. I submit myself to you to make pictures, to make an Argument for Grace. I do not know if anyone will ever understand.”

    “I am absolutely nothing like you people. All of this has nothing to do with me as an ego. I am not a person doing this. The Great One is such a Wonder, such a Marvel, such a Graceful and Loving Being to countless beings such as all of us here. But the Great one does not love beings. The Great One is Love…”

    ******************

    I have noticed a certain theme that those most critical of Adi Da seem to focus on in this thread. Also the same theme is on many of the posts over at LightMind – where I was also going to post after linking to it from here – but after reading a bunch of the threads there, so many seem so negative, superficial, wrong, and ironic about my Master, that I am reluctant to.

    Anyway, what I notice is that the most critical people seem very reactive about Adi Da making statements that He is the only One, the Great One, the Avatar, Only God, the Only-By-Me-Revealed Teaching, etc.

    From the “standpoint” of the Absolute, Acausal Unconditional Non-dual Reality there IS only ONE – so I find such statements by Him a constant reminder that ultimately there is only the Unconditional – not all this conditionality!

    He also tells us that He is us, everything arises in Him, that He is all Realizers, etc., etc., etc. These statements are utterly non-dual in nature and certainly paradoxical to our conditional, conventional, and reactive minds because once we identify with the point-of-view machine called ego-I, we forget our Unconditional nature which is beyond all point-of-view – and may even become so naive as to think that somehow, because we are ultimately all One, that we are already enlightened and therefore only have to persist in some kind of abstracted mental presumption that this is the case in order for it to be so. I wish! No, it takes whole-bodily recognition of the Unconditional to allow Absolute Grace to break up the egoic presumptions at every level of the being.

    Such has been the function of true Spiritual Masters since ancient times.

  79. randomstu

    shiva Says:
    > even if one accepts the concept of enlightenment, which
    > most non-dual teachers do not, how can it be that one is
    > more enlightened than others?

    Many of the teachings called “non-dual” point students to “before-thinking.” That is, they point to something that’s not dependent on words and ideas. Even beautiful ideas like “enlightenment” are still ideas, and our just-now experience doesn’t depend on them.

    Non-dual and Zen teachers don’t encourage clinging to any concept at all…. and concepts related to “enlightenment” are no exception.

    In our Zen school, when someone first takes precepts, they get a certificate, which includes a poem that begins with the lines:

    “Good and Evil have no self-nature;
    Holy and Unholy are empty names…”

    I believe that the 2nd line can also be translated as “‘Enlightened’ and ‘Unenlightened’ are empty names.”

    Making and holding any sort of idea may be a hindrance to clearly and compassionately connecting with this very moment. Many teachers promote non-attachment to certain names and forms, but replace it with attachment to ideas about the Guru and his “Realization.” Maybe for some Da’s teaching is like that. It can be like a medicine that people take to cure one illness, not noticing that it’s giving them a new illness.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

  80. shiva

    ahh, blisscake! i love you brother! i know who you are and you have probably figured out who i am. we just skyped a few days ago. i totally dig your passion and your outspoken postings. and there’s not a hint of sarcasm in that. i know how it is to be in love with adi da. who am i to criticize THAT? hell, i might have written a similar post a few years ago!
    i also very much appreciate wes’s moderate and wise posts.

    at the end of the day, however, there are simply way too many inherent contradictions in his teachings and actions to take adi da seriously as a NON-DUALITY TEACHER. that is what i understand this blog to be about. and that is why i am posting here.

    non-duality. there is only ONE – without a second. as a principal (although not really non-dual) i can even understand the bhakti yoga approach that you become what you meditate on – through meditating on a truly realized being. that might work, although many strictly non-dual teachers would probably reject that principle.
    but to claim ANY exclusivity is just preposterous and a clear sign of delusion. nobody can be more one with one-ness than others! that is just ridiculous!
    just examine adi da’s teaching from that point of view: his constant repetitions of “the only-by-me revealed…”, his constant reiteration that only HE can give true liberation, etc. that is just a load of crap. sorry, my adidam friends, but that stuff simply doesn’t hold up.

    to illustrate this point further, let me tell you what i have found in real non-duality teachers:
    1. the constant stressing of the fact that you are always already liberated. nobody can become enlightened. the very concept of time (in which this “becoming” could take place) is an illusion.
    2. “don’t believe a word i am saying. examine it for yourself”. i have heard that (or a similar quote) constantly from the teachers i mentioned.
    3. no guru games WHATSOEVER. no self-glorifications. hell, they even refuse the label “teacher” because to them there is nobody to teach anything and nobody to receive a teaching.
    4. utter humbleness and refusal to acknowledge ANY difference.

    let this be enough and now compare this to adi da’s teaching and more importantly to his day-to-day behavior. it becomes immediately obvious that adi da is clearly not a non-duality teacher. FAR from it.

    i am not here to rant about adi da. i think he was a genius of an artist. i do not regret the time i served him intimately. in fact, i had a blast doing so. it was crazy, yes. but i can appreciate the “crazy-wise” approach. i dig it.

    but adi da utterly failed to deliver ANY of his claims of him being a spiritual master. his teaching was and is dangerous from a non-duality point of view because it only serves delusion in the student, not clarity. it only serves to bind the student to him. there is a subtle from of brainwashing going on in adidam. although, i am the first to admit that i was not harassed at all when i announced that i would leave. no pressure at all on me. so, i am not talking about the typical brainwashing associated with other sects. however, the entire “culture” within adidam is set up to enforce a subtle form of brainwashing that condemns ANY form of criticism of adi da or his teaching. ANY form whatsoever.

    but again. back to the basics. non-duality. there is ONLY ONE – without a second. how can anybody claim exclusivity on the ONE? adi da, however, did just that. nothing more needs to be said, really.

  81. Feel4God

    A friend just sent me this. Not to get all “starry-eyed” ;) – it is at least interesting psychophysics being played out.

    From one friend:

    This photo was taken in China . . . a “happy face” sky

    ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: November 26, 2008
    WASHINGTON (AP) – On a holiday weekend full of gatherings, the three brightest objects in the night sky—Venus, Jupiter and a crescent moon—are getting together for a rare one. A senior editor at Sky and Telescope magazine says by Sunday and Monday nights, Venus and Jupiter will be separated in the sky only by about the width of your finger held out at arm’s length. On Monday night, they’ll be joined by a crescent moon right next to them. The lineup will be visible even without a telescope or binoculars to anyone looking toward the southwestern sky around twilight. But get a good look this weekend, because it won’t happen like this again until November 18th, 2052.

    (Another astronomer said it will happen again in 2014.)

    The great conjunction offers something extra to Europeans. For more than an hour this evening, the crescent moon will eclipse Venus.

    http://english.rednet.cn/c/2008/12/02/1650372.htm

    @ Conradg – Weren’t you an astrologer in Adidam for a while? I think it is also interesting to note that Jupiter, Venus, and the Moon were all part of a Grand Trine in Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer (all three water signs) respectively, upon Bhagavan Adi Da’s birth. Those two planets and the moon are generally equated with expansiveness, love, and nurturing respectively – if I recall correctly.

    And another friend mentioned this:

    This Happy face was made from the three brightest lights in the night sky.

    Anyway, what a mystery all of this is!

  82. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    In regards to your comments about there being only One, if Adi Da had merely affirmed this ancient truth, I don’t think people would be reacting to his claims so strongly. Certainly they might still be doubting if he had realized that One, and be critical of whether his life and teachings reflect a genuine realization of Oneness, but I don’t think you’d see such a negative response. The truth is, people respond negatively to Da because he claims an exclusive and unique realization of this One and Only Truth, and a unique and exclusive role for everyone else. I’m trying not to distort his message, but he certainly does claim to be the only genuinely and fully realized person who has ever lived, and that the only way for anyone to ever genuinely and fully realize this One is through him in his bodily human form, and all the agencies created by him in his bodily human lifetime, including his teaching and sanctuaries and human devotees. He claims there will never, ever be another Guru to compare to him, and that of course there never has been. This of course smacks of the very kind of cultic delusion that most people find corrosive and corrupt in religion, and which even Da himself originally seemed to be critical of. So it’s no wonder that people react to this, especially those who favor the non-dual traditions, just as they don’t react favorably to conventional Christian claims about Jesus, or Mormonism, or any group that claims to be the one and only vehicle of the One God.

    So it’s good from my point of view if you interpret Adi Da’s claims about being the One and Only to refer merely to the unitary nature of reality, but if you do so to affirm Adi Da’s claims as being the one and only true and complete vehicle of the Divine, well, I think you can expect quite a lot of criticism and unfavorable reaction. All the true realizers I know of who speak of themselves as having realized the One, don’t promote themselves as some exclusive and unique vehicle of it. In fact, generally it is assumed that anyone who does so is automatically highly suspect and probably a fraud. Certainly such an extraordinary claim would require some kind of extraordinary proof, which neither Adi Da nor Adidam seem able to provide. 2000 years have passed and Jesus still hasn’t returned. How long will we have to wait for proof of Da’s uniqueness?

  83. Stevie in Wonderland

    What a fantastic response all these posts have been and show how influential he was! For that and some great literature, we should all be really grateful. ..and I am.
    He certainly was a “fool for god” but would have served us all and his message better, if, just once, he was able to hear from any other p.o.v. No receptivity there whatsoever; just total hyper-macho man. “I am !00% right about every single iota of everything and I’ll bust your ass if you disagree with me!”
    Well he (Daddy-Da) certainly chewed up and spat out quite a few of us….luckily some of us were forced to dive deep and trust our own sense of truth and integrity (there we go “self-guru-ing again”…ho hum) and managed to break free of the terrible mind-control and double-think, double-speak that permeated the cult from the top down. Self-understanding begins with self understanding (for starters the unconscious need for a 100% authoritarian father-figure is the basis for fascism: see Wilhelm Reich) Hard as it is, each and everyone of us needs decide what our truth is and who we listen to. I know that many ex-devotees feel angry at the abuse they suffered, rightly so; some even had break-downs and never recovered..but let’s also be thankful for what many of us learned. Won’t ever get fooled again.. and did get to study enormous amounts of the “great tradition” that would never have done before. The “shakti” experiences and quasi drug affects also showed us how labile infantile emotional states can be engineered with endless indoctrination, working, studying, low-protein diet meditating etc.till you drop. But YOU are doing it to yourself. There is no Other…great or GREAT. Only your own consciousness…ain’t that the point? But the arrogance and smug hard-heartednes that came with being a “good devotee” was sick-making. “Destroy all “dissidents” comrade!” “Bust Ass” etc etc. all a mirror to Frankie’s own paranoid outbursts of violence…he would undoubtedly have felt so “Free” that murder would not phase him….morality went out the window when he became convinced of his Utterly Utterly Unique status (interestingly Rudi also suffered the same illness and said that nobody like him had appeared on earth for 10,000 years…yeah, right!)
    As a former long-term devotee, I have to agree with the critics (thank you former follower and critic, you are concise and spot-on in your post) and also understand those Still In The Cult (Sorry about The Caps..it Just Started Happening Blissfully On It’s Own). Ultimately what a shame that such a talented, intelligent charismatic and obviously spiritually experienced man should become so enamoured of his own ego and experience, that he created a monstrous collective ego (the cult) to see that his inflated ego stayed that way.
    The art, by the way, ain’t all that good, new or different, but even his farts must have been rose-scented for a good devotee!
    What a difference if a real dialogue and human communication had been allowed…Whilst I was with the cult I visited Ramanasram and was told by a wise old man who had known Franklin, when he was there in ’73, that he was a “spiritual criminal”. I was deeply offended and re-acted in exactly the same way as all the da-lovers above have. I also met Bede Griffiths who had put all of Da’s books in the occult section of his library. When I asked why this was he said that he was clearly an occult master like Aleister Crowley. Again I was offended. I asked him why he thought this was so apparent; and, without missing a beat, he said that it was the constant self-referencing. “Oh but He Means the Transcendental Self” I said. Bede smiled and raised one eyebrow…”Watch what he does…” Indeed! And he could have added, “Watch what they do in his name”. Any non-believers, myself included were threatened and abused in
    the “god’s name”. The abuses occurred..we all saw them, but suspended our simple human morality because it was all “crazy wisdom” or “theatre” ….just as decent Germans explained the actions of their glorious leader in WW2..Yes! A great lesson. One I am extremely grateful for and so sad to see him die before “getting off it”and joining the rest of us humans down here. I knew that he never could, having taken it so far…but I secretly hoped he might. But hey all you “da-lovers”, now is your chance….WAKE UP and look around you! You maybe dripping in an “MDMA cloud” over in Fiji, but the real world is out here saying, “If you really got love-bliss, come and share some with us!” But don’t expect us to join in your seriously skew-wiff cultic worship of The Emperor’s New Clothes…many, many of us, sorry…we’ve seen him naked!

  84. shiva

    did adi da enter MAHASAMADHI?

    the definition for mahasamdhi (for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasamadhi) clearly involves the CONSCIOUS leaving of the body.

    no such thing happened with adi da. he just died. very ordinary. very sudden. completely unannounced and unexpected – by anybody, even himself and his inner family. his flesh started to decay after 2-3 days, as it does with any ordinary human. there was nothing extra-ordinary about his death whatsoever.

    anybody who has lived with adi da for some time and seen his relationship with his inner circle and family will see immediately that there was nothing conscious about his death. he would have certainly told sukhapur (one of his most intimate devotees) and/or naamleela (his most beloved daughter) had he known about his imminent death. nothing of the kind happened. it came as a shock to everybody. and from an adidam point of view his death was VERY untimely.

    this is not to belittle the mourning my adidam friends go through. but i cannot help but notice the inconsistencies even in his final “act”.

  85. akasha

    Shiva….while I agree with you totally, as a former student from 1976 to 1989, there were still moments of utter and sublime wonder in his presence. I spent some incredible days at the Mountain of Attention that were nothing less than divine bliss. But, I agree with you that, in the end, his ego and abuse (by Da as well as his inner circle) was all too much to take and I left to search out and find a ligitimate path of non-dual realization. After 8 years of searching I finally found the path of Mahamudra and Dzogchen under the tutilage of a true and qualified master and lineage holder of those Buddhist traditions. The Buddha Dharma has taken me where Da could not or would not take me. While I value the time I spent in his presence as one of many steps along the way I feel that, perhaps, we can all take a step back and evaluate the event called Adi Da (aka: Bubba Free John, Da Free John, Da Love Ananda, et al) with clear eyes and free of the nonsense of cultic peer pressure and a guru with little regard for those he professes to serve.

  86. puonamu

    It has been very interesting for me to read these posts. I have never been a formal devotee, but was introduced to Da through my partner, who was a devotee when we met.
    It has was interesting to read the reference to Da’s work being kept in the “occult” section, along with Crowley’s, as my partner seems to have always been torn between wanting to serve Adi Da and on the other hand follow Thelema. Now that you mention it, I can see a common thread there.
    I must concede that being in any association with Adi Da, then metaphysical things begin to happen, but I think for me the jury is still out as to the source of these events. His devotees will say it is from Him, but I still entertain the notion that many of these things are self-produced. Didn’t AdiDa once say himself, that if he wasnt kicking your arse, then you probably just made it up in your own head?
    For me, the main sticking point was how the Adidam community treated me (and many of the personalities found there). Even without being a formal devotee, I would recieve phone calls asking for money for various events etc, and me with small children living on government benefits trying to get through university. If I didnt pay, then there would be no association with the community allowed.
    I could never figure out how much of these things came from directions from the Guru, and how much was just the adidam community running amok without his knowledge. I guess I will never know.
    I think it is easy to have love for the Guru, there is something there, unfortunately I am not one to believe that he is the one and only promised God-man, and perhaps I am poorer for that, however, I feel that in accepting that, it negates a certain fundamental wonder of the fact we are all created equal and alive here together experiencing the same things. I dont need to go looking for something other.
    Perhaps it is because I was raised essentially as an animist, I am too primitive to really “get” what his devotees seem to. :)
    I think one of the things that was of enormous value in Adidam was the concept of devotion, unfortunately, unlike the message of, for example, lord Caitanya, devotion alone didnt seem to be enough. It is fair to say, though, that through my brief association with Adidam, I am much more appreciative of all forms of devotion.
    At the moment I am torn, because my partner, who has not been in association with Adidam for many years, suddenly went haring off to Fiji with 12 hours notice on a one way ticket, leaving me with no money and 2 small children under 5.
    On the one hand I know I am expected to be “cool” with this, and understanding of his special relationship and spiritual path etc etc, but on the other I desperately want to open a can of whoop arse on the self absorbed so and so.
    I hope the crankiness from this event hasnt overly pervaded my writing here, as I am also genuiney sorry for the loss his family and devotees are experiencing, and wish to extend my condolences.

  87. Dan

    puonamu – You have every reason and every right to be angry at and concerned about your partner. The fact that their action is, to me, the height of irresponsibility (not to mention some very deep misguided clinging) is just another indication of what that Guru and his community amounted to. So much misplaced attention…such fixation on their own delusions…

    I was a devotee for 12 years, but I have not read any of the teachings in over 20 years so I have some experience both with the teacher and the community. I left my first wife there and have found a far deeper love and true spiritual partner since.

    Once, when I was waxing poetic about my devotion to the teacher, another devotee interrupted me and told me I was just sucking on the tit of God. It was like a slap in the face. And it was true! It was the day I started to “kill the Buddha” on the road. I am so glad I left that “body” behind.

    Da has done all his devotees an unparalleled service. Since they wouldn’t kill him, he did. All blessings to him and to his followers. I mean that sincerely.

    Now it is time for them to grow up, or better, grow out.

    “Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
    the world offers itself to your imagination,
    calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting �
    over and over announcing your place
    in the family of things.” – Mary Oliver, Wild Geese

  88. Former Follower and Critic

    Whether one sees a given teacher to be their guru depends, as Ramana Maharshi said, on where their mind is attuned, and not necessarily that they have met their Satguru. The Adi Da quote “you may be right but I am Happy” above is intended to be dismissive but is quite illuminating, actually. Da is actually more direct than he is often given credit for, as in that, and the earlier quote about his teaching being not in agreement with any other teachers or traditions and his not listening to anyone. The statement made above, that critics are “reactive” about “Adi Da making statements that He is the only One, the Great One, the Avatar, Only God, the Only-By-Me-Revealed Teaching, etc.”, and that “He also tells us that He is us, everything arises in Him, that He is all Realizers, etc., etc., etc.” is another example where Da is actually quite clear. Conradg has accurately described his claims of exclusivity which mean exactly what they appear to mean without all the elaborate explanation. It is the interpretation placed on these various statements by Da devotees that presents the paradox they refer to because they want to read into them a no-dual rationalization that is suspect and not supported by actions. The indiscriminate pursuit of the bliss of guru bhakti and shakti experiences and the unquestioned adoption of every single change and claim common in Adidam despite problematic signs which has now become the norm, is just a much a distraction as Da originally claimed in his earliest talks in relation to others. There is a parodox in the fable of the emperor with no clothes, and an analogous pardox with Da’s claims and behavior, and the solution to both paradoxes is the same. But until you see it, it can remain a parodox, and that may be part of the karmic lesson of a particular life. But that does not mean objective observers should be under any illusions that Da actually only meant that he was One in the traditional, non-dualist sense, and that criticisms of Da are criticisms of this traditional view of the Self and non-dualism. Rather, the collective claims of Da regarding his status and behavior are radically unprecedented in non-dualism.

    I too am one of those drawn both to Ramana Maharshi and (initially) to Da. And I too was resistive to and dismissive of wiser ones who saw the same Crowley like aspects in Da that Crowley’s ex-Secretary Israel Regardie obviously saw when he made an early endorsement of Da. And I too was resistive to these those wiser than I who saw the progressive growth of rationalizations for the so-called paradoxical but egoic statements for what they were in the light of Da’s actions. Today, older but wiser, I agreee that not only are there significant differences between Da and Ramana Maharshi, but those differences reflect poorly on Da in terms of both claimed realization, dogma and the results of practice. Those who really thought Ramana Maharshi was encouraging students to meditate or focus on opening the heart on the right (he was not), or were unclear about what he actually said on the so-called amrita nadi (yes, it has been proven he described it, just differently than Da), and who misunderstood self-enquiry as being the way Da described it even though he never engaged it himself, might be drawn to choose Da, as some have. But an examination of the criticism Da made of Ramana Maharshi and his claimed inferior state of realization and alleged deficiencies as a guru shows that Da distorted and took Ramana Maharshi’s life and teaching out of context. Regardless, it is Ramana Maharshi who left an lineage of apparent Realizers and with a reputation among millions as the greatest Sage of the 20th Century, while Da died prematurely of his own life choices without warning or consciousness and left only followers focused on shakti bliss experiences. For some of us, Da played a role leading to greater understanding of non-dualism, for which I for one am grateful, but this was only preparatory to a more mature practice attuned to the non-dualist tradition.

    To those whose destiny is to allow Da’s presence to blissfully melt their mind and body from above their head in the assumption they are close to the final stage and that this is a superior practice even if others can’t see it, so be it. Praise Da here by all means, live your bliss, and interpret your experiences as you see fit. But I suggest that the Da devotees consider that the criticism based on what is projection of their own resolutions to their internal conflicts reflects more on themselves than critics. The claim that critics are “resisting” the Divine and Da’s claims out of ego, just because they equate that criticism to their own sense of internal resistance to their own practice. Those of us once involved know all too well what they are talking about and once accepted the same idea, and we now know the criticism of Da’s claims is not about ego, the claims themselves, understood, are improbable to say the least. For at least some of us, the “resistance” to Da’s claims comes more accurately from a reliable inner intuition that finally broke through, that we would have been wiser to have heeded earlier in relation to Da, but for the necessary maturity needing to be developed first.

    So, would I rather be right or happy? Personally, I would rather be right and at Peace, i.e., assured about Realization, than just be Happy, however blissful for a time, no matter how much love and bliss comes crashing down from above, leaving one with a craving for more. Otherwise I can find enough happiness in a conventional salvation at a charismatic church. I think all that comes from the conditional realms and has nothing to do with the Heart or Self.

  89. ringer

    In light of the non-conditional Presence his form was a vehicle for, the death of Adi Da Samraj is no more Real than anything else that goes on here. In duality land, there is nothing of any ultimacy occurring. The only thing that can truthfully be said to be happening is Grace, intimate and subjective. But short of that, there is an unending confrontation with ourselves–the great illusion, ‘I’–represented by everything else until we recognize it as so and surrender, too. The ego (and its attachments) might not want to hear it, but no one’s physical departure has any effect whatsoever on the Reality that Is. Da was a perfect mirror and contributor to the drama of our lives, always working to expose us to ourselves because we are all he had to work with! What I think is offensive or problematic to some is that the ‘me’ we identify as our’self’ died in him a long time ago and he made no bones about it! His constant reminders of who he Is are for the purpose of frustrating us to the point of recognition/surrender in our own case. Our reactive projecting onto him is virtually unavoidable yet inspired–meant to reflect us to ourselves in a paradoxical dynamic that cannot be simply explained. But those who miss the point become disillusioned with him alone and forget to include themselves (this is a relationship after all). So be it. But there’s no escaping from it and we’re reminded now that no one here gets out alive, thank god. That’s the beauty of it All.

  90. Stevie in Wonderland

    Once again, former follower and critic hits the nail squarely on the head. This is exactly the way I understand my many years of involvement with Da. A few years after leaving I felt that this may have indeed been the covert purpose of the whole she-bang..to dive in as deep as you can, take it to the limit and,develop enough understanding in the process to be able to “kill the buddha” and walk away with enough to live your own practice, self-enquiry or whatever. N.B. to kill the buddha it helps to meet him first. Reading the literature is good, but almost surely not enough. I hope that many ex-Daists left the club able to pursue spiritual practice free of all the clutter, nonsense and artifice so often required. Our cultic radars should be finely tuned. He let us know that it was O.K. to be an ego as well as pure freedom. Nirvanasara! I too experienced samadhis, raptures, openings etc. Those are what kept me hooked in there so long, as well as the warmth, humour, charm, charisma and intelligence of the guy (N.B. the man not the god or the utterly Utterly etc.) The crux of his error (intentional? a joke?) was, despite his claims of non-dual realization, he overtly argued in favour of his personal uniqueness and Divinely Avataric etc etc…a clearly dualistic p.ov. How ironic he should write a book against cultism and then become more cultic than ever and write a book about the complete non- necessity for a Gomboo-Ananda and then become just that. Didn’t anyone get the joke? He became enamoured by his own apparently non-dual experience and related it to himself as a body-ego what-you-will….clearly a dualistic interpretation. If I AM and that’s it…who gives a fuck what I do, might as well take as many drugs, screw as much as I want, beat up on the serfs, hey, even found a religion….or with wisdom is there responsibility?
    Franklin, Franklin, how I wish you had done that psychotherapy and uncovered your unconscious drives towards power, control and indulgence! I am and always will be grateful for the “hard school” that he created. I miss the chance to see him again and grieve his personal loss with all the die-hard religionists from the community…really! As for the conjuction of the planets and moon on the day he passed…well, I saw the face of LL Cool J in my omelette this morning! Let us not forget that Franklin studied scientology and as Ron Hubbard famously remarked, “If you want to get rich, start a religion. Now the proof of his value will be what happens next….more of the same or some sprinkling of humanity among the starry eyed ones..Boy, these posts are getting interesting! Maybe the moderator should publish a pamphlet, open a centre, blah blah blah…humour has suddenly always been here! Enjoy the dance! Especially, if you’re in the MDMA cloud on Fiji! with love, Stevie

  91. Steve

    I lived in the Bay Area in the 70’s and 80’s, and used to watch Bubba Da Free John like one might watch a circus freak show. I read a few of his books and got to know some devotees, from whom I heard one outrageous story after another, always couched in terms that glorified The-Man-Who-Would-Be-God. Truly, those of you who were his devotees were enablers for all that he got away with, and what he imagined himself to be. From what I’ve heard and read it sounds like he was over-the-top in love with himself, and could get followers to do just about anything he wanted them to do.

    I was always amazed that devotees could imagine they were involved in anything other than a cult of personality, which they always denied. How could anything be more obvious?

    From what I saw, this group was never involved with anything like non-dual teachings or practice. It was a bhakti cult, and a degenerate one at that. Da turned out to be a corrupt guru just like so many others, and in his later years slid into the kind of obscurity he deserved. Where I live now, it’s extremely rare to find anyone who’s even heard of Adi Da, or Da Free John.

    While I appreciate that his passing is a big deal for those of you who were followers, to the rest of the world his death is a non-event. And to people like me, his very ordinary, unexpected death was an appropriate way for his time on this planet to end. Maybe it will serve as a wake-up call to a few of those who lived under his toxic, occult-like spell. But no doubt many will choose to hold on to their illusions.

  92. wes

    This being a non-dual post…
    I will get to that in a moment, as best I can.

    Hi to many old friends posting here.
    I wish I knew more of your names again. To connect the face with the feeling of you.

    As you may know, I have continued in the formal community for all these years.

    Along the way, there has been so much dis-illusionment with my utopian vision of both community and Guru .
    I have done my own share of inhumanity along the way.
    And am humbled by the evidence of my own cultism and naiveite’.

    All that being so. I found that Adi Da is my Awakener.

    Perhaps another way of saying ” Non -Dual ” is
    “No- Separation ” or ” Unconditional Love “.

    I have always experienced an unconditional love as an essence of Adi Da all this time…throughout the process
    of dis-illusionment with all appearences around and about Him
    as an ” Other “. And around and about all of us as seeming separate.

    I am left to make peace with how that gift of unconditional love or no-separation works out … forever.

    Personally, I am sorry for the immature egoic excesses that
    I was a party to in the community .
    We have mostly grown on…
    Most devotees have softened and become more compassionate and open minded over time.
    Most have despaired of casual , or formalized cultism .

    During His last couple of years the Guru became so translucent, so shattered of the earlier teaching personas.
    During this time, Adi Da awakened me to His Spherical Form.
    Which is not an ego -or owned -or other.

    It is an all embracing , all inclusive bright consciousness as unconditional love.

    This is what takes me forward in practice.

    That is the ” It ” for me now … the Bright Sphere of the Guru is not owned or other.

    In the mystery of all, when I give my attention to Adi Da,
    feel to Guru, that is what arises as consciousness.

    So His spiritual legacy to me is awareness of consciousness
    as non-dual in that manner.
    Yet transcendently bright and all embracing.

    This gift continues to shine and there is no roster or external gate or external temple, that can prevent anyone from access.

    This is beautiful to me. Adi Da is that to me now.

    I hope there is beauty , happiness and grace in all your lives in what ever form it is revealed …even all form.

    Recalling…” It is better to be happy than concerned “.

    Always enjoyed that simplicity.

    Much Love to you,

    Wes

  93. NC

    I have taken the point of view of nearly everyone on this forum, but the fact still remains that the gift he gave me was like no other gift I have received in my life. With his passing, every hurt, every word of criticism, every moment of my dark night of the soul was necessary.
    All my life I have run away, because I felt if people really knew me they would reject me. How many of us feel the same way? If anyone of us had our lives inspected to the degree the Adi Da’s is, how many of us would look like pillars of our community, and what is that all about anyway? In our culture we almost take a sadistic pleasure in tearing others down who offend us. Every one can build a relic out of anyone. Every icon can be smashed and turned to dust. Every body will disappear.
    I found in Samraj Adi Da, a doorway from maya, even though it nearly killed me to see what was necessary. I saw that I was not a victim. That every situation that presents itself is a gift to break through the limits of bondage. He offended me in every possible way. I felt that I would never be his chosen one. I would never be his beloved, his consort. It took his death for me to see that I was eternally bound to HIM, not him as Franklin Jones, Bubba Free Jones, my husband, my father, or some power hungry despot, but as the gift he gave me, when I first saw him and understood.
    I remember one Darshan I recieved in Fiji, where I witnessed his form take on all the faces of who I loved, and then finally become the visage of death. I remember weeping with gratitude because I felt I had really seen reality in all it’s beauty and terror and I sat there swooning in love, not for the limitations you describe in Him….but for the unreasonable Happiness I felt in the mids of my dissolution.

  94. Feel4God

    Wow, some bruised egos coming here and can’t help but get nasty in the midst of it, it seems. And the basis for this nastiness seems to be what purportedly happened to some of you 20+ years ago. I thought this was a forum about non-duality. Hmmm….

    Anyway, minimally I would hope there would be more respect shown to Adi Da – especially with His physical passing, and also since very few of even the harshest critics seem to question the greatness of His Teachings. Some feedback – if someone calls my Master “Frankie” or any other such ironic reference, just understand that whatever else you are communicating has lost most, if not all, of its effectiveness in my opinion.

    Since Ramana Maharshi seems to at least be a common ground for some of us to actually discuss non-duality, I will first say again that I practiced and studied intensely for several years what Ramana Maharshi taught – and that I have the greatest respect for him. Also, I am well aware of Adi Da’s insistence that all His devotees have the utmost respect for all true realizers. With that being said, I proceed with humble and respectful cautiousness.

    Regarding a difference between Sri Ramana Maharshi and Bhagavan Adi Da – Ramana clearly recommended an introverted inspection of the source of the I-thought via the question “Who am I”, etc. Adi Da understood this approach to still be a form of seeking, and so made that critical point, among others.

    It was only after meeting Bhagavan Adi Da and hearing His instructions that I became suspect of the dissociated introversion that such a practice of Self-Enquiry was resulting in. Regardless of Ramana Maharshi’s actual Realization, what I am talking about right here is his instruction to devotees. Much of it is still based in the Eastern tradition of introversion and world denial (to escape the world), and such was Ramana’s own basic expression in the world – he hardly acknowledged the world, much less gave detailed advice about right life, etc.

    Adi Da has always very respectfully embraced all true religious and spiritual traditions, and has made great sense of them in His Basket of Tolerance essays. Whatever egos might want to interpret His statements to imply – He always embraces everyone, regardless of religion, race, etc. Adi Da (Adidam) is utterly inclusive, not anything like fundamentalism with its exclusive salvation messages, etc.

    I have looked at many realizers’ teachings and pictures, and this helps to confirm what Adi Da has said about the point-of-view or limit of each of these traditions. For instance, the ascending traditions spoken of by Swami Muktananda, as well as some other very great yogis still alive today – their pictures (and of course their teachings) often indicate this upward point-of-view or concentration above – lots of energy focused in the upper terminal of the head and eyes. Regarding the non-duality traditions, for instance, pictures of Sri Ramana Maharshi yield a sense of absolute sublimity, but also a sense of inwardness, and exclusive of outward life.

    In all the years of being in Adi Da’s physical Company and feeling innumerable moments and pictures of Him, I never have a sense of any point-of-view being assumed. There is no fixation whatsoever anywhere that I have ever witnessed with Him. Because He is beyond ALL point-of-view (ego-I), He can speak of being the Absolute Acausal Unconditional Reality in no uncertain terms! And where else could such magnificent Teachings even arise from? Like I said much earlier, had I witnessed any form of self-consciousness or point-of-view (ego-I) with Him under ANY circumstance, I would have left.

    For the record, I am not some starry-eyed spiritual enthusiast that has been deluded by shakti experiences. I have always tested everything I have been given, and never have blindly believed anything – and besides, I am too much of a scientifically-inclined doubting type to do such a thing.

    And finally, as others have rightly expressed, one’s choice of their Sat-Guru is a very personal matter and deserving of respect – so just understand I am not trying to convert anyone here. However, I am going to express what I have directly experienced in my Spiritual Master’s Company – partly to put it out there, partly to learn, and partly to counter what I have seen to mainly be misunderstanding by the critics.

  95. Dharma bum

    Adi Da was a dualist who thought he was more God than everyone and everything else. Here’s an interesting quote from an article I found:

    “Adi Da criticizes devotees for relating to him as if he personally were God Incarnate, while at the same time requiring them to adopt forms of bodily worship and ways of referring to and relating to him that absolutely enforce that point of view. The honorific titles and capital letters he uses to refer to himself (and requires devotees to use) are obvious proclamations of personal divinity, to say nothing of the ritual worship of his person that is required of devotees. These facts are obvious on their face.

    However, Adi Da attempts to muddy the waters by criticizing devotees’ cultic approach to him, and giving convoluted explanations of how references to him as God are not personal references, but “ecstatic” speech about transcendent God who is somehow revealed more through him than through anyone else. The inherent conflict between his criticisms of devotees’ cultism and his requirement that they treat him as God keeps devotees in a constant state of failure for “being cultic.” That failure allows Adi Da to criticize them in a way that provides “cover” while he preserves all of the core mechanisms that reinforce the presumption of Da’s superiority. It allows him to remain the Object of devotees’ cultic worship, which is what he wants.

    The frequent criticisms of cultism in Adi Da’s edited talks and books are convenient for placating the public and newer members, and are an exercise in extreme cognitive dissonance for serious devotees.

    Any sane person who has even a cursory familiarity with Adi Da’s personal interactions with devotees cannot fail to see that he is (and expects to be) treated as God Incarnate.”

  96. AKASHA

    Well, after reading so many of these posts the past came rushing back and reminded me of this:
    1. True believers will always be, no matter what.
    2. Truth about the real man explains the pain and abuse suffered by so many.
    3. As far as his written and spoken teachings go…use what you can and ‘can’ what you can’t. I found some parts of the original “Knee…”, “Method of the Siddhas”, “Garbage and the Goddess” and “Elutherios” usefull. Everything after that is just rehashing of the same teachings dressed up in fancy book covers. Beyond that, there are traditons and teachers out there that represent the true essence of non-duality, if you are so inclined.

    One thing I might note. After years of reading, study and practice I am truly convinced that Da… “borrowed” most of his essence teachings from Kashmir Shaivism (which Swami Muktananda was a proponant and teacher of). The doctrine of the heart, Radical Re-cognition (Pratyabijna Hridayam), the union of the outer and inner world process (Shakti) and absolute consciousness (Shiva) found in Bhairava Mudra and Krama Mudra practices. He did not come out of the melieu of Advaita Vedanta, as most believe (Ramana Maharshi was a dodge for him). His description of his union with the Goddess at the Vedanta temple in 1971(2?) is testimony to that. You should read the Doctrine of Vibration – Spanda Karika, the Pratyabijnahridaya by Ksemaraja and the Vijnana-bhairava, all ancient texts of Kashmir Shaivism. It’s all there. Da was a self made Shaivist in disguise. The only difference is that Kashmir Shaivism is a tested tradition over 1000 years old, with ample scholarly cometary by truly great masters and siddhas. Da was a truly great con man…that was his real genious and siddhi.

  97. ED

    In response to NC, thankyou for your compassionate responses to those who have written insinsitive remarks here..
    In response to those who did not know Adi Da and who have made questioned or made negative remarks here….now is not the time…
    all anyone needs to understand in this moment is that people love, they love their family , their friends, their lovers, their chosen gurus and spiritual masters. No one has the right ever to say who can love who……everyone is deserving of love, Adi Da loved…. with all His being, his life was a sacrifice to teach others, some people were able to use that love and teaching , others weren’t …. please leave those of us alone who are mourning the loss of someone, loved deeply ….. I would never myself say anything negative to someone , even if I disliked them , if a member of their family was mourning their death, please have some respect and feel that people are simply in pain at the death of a great human being, thankyou.

  98. slyder

    All this is interesting. (Coradg…good to hear your voice. Last I heard it we were on retreat in Hawaii…I was from the Boston region)

    I am an ex-devotee that left the “community”10 years ago after having been involved with the”teaching”, at one “level” or onother, since 75. In those years I received a lot of gifts so I can’t honestly dismiss my time or the gifts involved. Nor can I dismiss the other insights given during my time there and be honest as well.

    The two most important gifts came at the very begining and the very end. “I give you everything in the first moment”. Well…Confirmation. Here was this man speaking and writing the very insights and intuitions that had been given to me in my youth only spoken far more eloquently. Confirmation only…the first gift. “I am not your Daddy or DADDY”. This was the “theme” of my final formal retreat with him. The gift? Time to kill the Buddha. Any kind of oedipal play that I was having with him or any other man died and is gone to this day. For both of these gifts I am very grateful.

    From that day on my relationship changed dramatically with him and the “community”. He set me free. In that freedom, what I refused to openly speak of before, came out completely un-inhibited…free. He showed me both Frank and Da. I saw him completely. I saw his community completely. Needless to say when I returned to my region and started to talk about my observations it wasn’t well received…hell, it wasn’t received at all. “Criticism”, contrary to popular belief in the community, is not accepted. “Criticism” of the guru is heresy…period. The verbal and mental gymnastics that students will use to discredit, manipulate, violate any veiw that is not in accord with the group-think come direct from the teacher himself. So let’s look at that.

    FrankenDa. He is both…two…not one or the other. He is dualistic. Both sides…Frank and Da…are there. Both. I will not dismiss the yogic qualities that are there no more than deny that Frank, in all his glory, is there. He has written some of the most amazing words that I have read in my lifetime. He has written some of the most amazing garbage that I have seen as well. In both you get a very clear picture of “who” he realy is, not “who” he says he is, but who he is.

    It is heresy to treat FrankenDa as the ordinary man. Why? Because if you do then his “doings” won’t be seen as they “are”. They are “crazy-wise” and can’t be understood from the conventional view. Is this true? Realy? NO! That is the blinder that Frank asks you to put on when you take your vows. Who says you can’t look at him and his “doings” from the conventional view??? Frank!!! Why? Cuz then he can do whatever the hell he wants to and so he has. It is the “Doublebind”. To say that a person can’t view FrankenDa from a “conventional” view is a condescention. It implies, and actualy comdems as heresy, trusting your own observations and intuitions. “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes”?

    “You become what you put your attention on”. A great truth. “It is done unto you as you believe”. It’s been said before. It’s been said throught all time. Not unique to Adidam. Has anyone ever asked the question what does FrankenDa put his attention on? He does…all the time. So what is it. It can be seen in plain sight. He creates his own reality just like everyone else. So what is it? His body was the prime example of his own manifestations. His bodily human form is a monument to years of debauchery. Kids, this guy was pampered (and over indulged) in every possible way…he didn’t have a hard life. Yet, his body shows all the manifestations of alchohol, chemical abuse and non-exercise. He died young! Look at the community…he created that too. It’s a mess. It is totaly disfunctional as an organization. He has constantly criticized this very thing. This he “focused” on. That is an important statement. He focused on “mess”. In the call to grow the community he undermined it constantly. He got what he “focused” or put his attention on. Take an open-eyed look at Adidam.

    What else did FrankenDa put his attention on? Narcissus. We know the story so need to repeat it here. He went into seclusion for most of his life. His “sanctuaries” and “inner circle” were no more than his own pond. Years of living like this only added to the closing in on his own self-attention. Is there any wonder that he would eventualy create “rankings” of all the great spiritual teachers and have the temerity to tell you what it is they were saying and how all that falls very short of his own new covenant. (7th Stage? What is that? Who says so? Who? FrankenDa. Validated by whom? No-one). The “rankings” are another example of the “Doublebind”. Then of course the capitalization to follow is only logical. Personaly I think it renders his writings useless. “It confronts the mind and undermines the ego”. So does a car accident. Bullshit. They are the very manifestation of a Narcissist…Mein Kampf comes to mind. Well…true enough…they are the “only by me given”. It is Narcissus’ best work to date. “You become what you meditate on”.

    You can tell from early on where FrankenDa was going with what he would create in a community. ( Where did he put his attention). He needed something from Muktananda. Recognition. He got it. He needed more…authority to teach based on the “endorsement” of Muktananda. Does he play it straight with his guru? Nope. He composes a series of questions for Baba to answer with the INTENDED PURPOSE of undermining the “needed” endorsement. Why the FEAR? In the mind of Frank Muktanada could not answer the questons because his own understanding was greater and it would only confound Baba. It also has the handy conclusion that an endorsement would be rendered unneccesary. A “Doublebind”. Thing is…I read the transcript (from the original) of the reply from Muktananda. He did answer Franks questions. He answered them fully. It is only Franks assertion that Baba didn’t. Baba also told Frank that he was not finished and warned him. In Zen there is a term for someone that “realizes” to a certain “level” and then goes off…”spiritual drunkedness”. So Frank did with his own guru what he criticizes those who left him…ran off with his bone.

    Quite simply, Adidam is the Cult of the Doublebind and FrankenDa the master. It is the very foundation… where and how Frank started. It’s how he serves devotees (undermining the ego)? No. Are there gifts? Yes. You may want to know what the tab for those gifts is going to be right up front. “Find Me Out”. You can hire the guru and you can fire his ass too. He works for you…or at least that’s what he presented. “My devotee is the God that I have come to serve”. Ah…right. There is some of that but you’ll need to sift through the rotten fruit to get a good one. Such is that tree.

    Having said all that I have here one may be left with the impression that I am angry or have regrets…I’m not and I don’t. In truth I still love the crazy as a shithouse rat, but in a way that one would love a crazy uncle. I still have friends in community and cherish their friendship…love the friends, fuck the community.

    He died too soon. I won’t condone his madness and I do not condem him. I just wouldn’t let him date my sister.

    “Those that despise me love me in secret.
    Those who love me openly have hidden doubts”. Adi Da

    Well Frank, when it’s my turn to move on I’ll look you up and we’ll drink some chung and chase some skirts.

    Via Con Dios partner.

  99. shiva

    @Feel4God:
    you say
    “Since Ramana Maharshi seems to at least be a common ground for some of us to actually discuss non-duality, I will first say again that I practiced and studied intensely for several years what Ramana Maharshi taught – and that I have the greatest respect for him.”

    and then proceed with
    “Regarding a difference between Sri Ramana Maharshi and Bhagavan Adi Da – Ramana clearly recommended an introverted inspection of the source of the I-thought via the question “Who am I”, etc.”

    it seems to me that you (and adi da) have not understood what ramana maharshi was saying. you are simply repeating a false point invented by adi da to artificially set him apart from ramana maharshi – as a false and artificial 7th stage realizer.

    in non-duality there is no inner and outer. ramana’s suggestion to investigate the “i” through “who am i?” has only one purpose. to reveal the “i” as an illusion and as a false reference point. only from and for that false reference point do inner and outer (and all other dualities) exist. there is nothing introverted about this investigation. in doing this investigation you will see that the “i” is just another appearance on non-conceptual awareness. non-conceptual awareness is neither introverted nor extroverted. it is beyond ALL concepts. and of course, this was utterly obvious to ramana maharshi. any invention of an “introverted p.o.v.” in ramanas suggestion is just that: an invention.

    it is no surprise that adi da didn’t understand that since his entire “basket of tolerance” scheme is only designed to artificially set him apart from everything else. adi da was blinded by his narcissistic desire to be different and better and more advanced and what have you.

    Feel4God, you may want to revisit the talks by ramana maharshi and also (and especially) nisargadatta maharaj, another non-dual teacher of the highest order and respect who was falsely and artificially disqualified (as 6th stage) by adi da.

    but again. back to the basics. non-duality. there is ONLY ONE – without a second. how can anybody claim exclusivity on the ONE? adi da, however, did just that. and in so doing he has completely disqualified himself as a spiritual teacher.

  100. slyder

    “So His spiritual legacy to me is awareness of consciousness
    as non-dual in that manner.
    Yet transcendently bright and all embracing.

    This gift continues to shine and there is no roster or external gate or external temple, that can prevent anyone from access.

    This is beautiful to me. Adi Da is that to me now”.

    I hope there is beauty , happiness and grace in all your lives in what ever form it is revealed …even all form”

    “… is no roster or external gate or external temple, that can prevent anyone from access”.

    That Wes, is elegant. It’s always been the truth. I take these words here as prayer and blessing. Thank You.

  101. Former Follower and Critic

    Feel4God,

    I appreciate the spirit you express here:

    “I am not trying to convert anyone here. However, I am going to express what I have directly experienced in my Spiritual Master’s Company – partly to put it out there, partly to learn, and partly to counter what I have seen to mainly be misunderstanding by the critics.”

    There is a karmic reason for where you are, just as there was when I was a follower. One should not try and “convert” a committed Da devotee, and such a conversion into mainstream non-dualism requires awakening to an entirely different POV and comes from within, not from without, and from my perspective, from grace rather than egoic effort. Similarly, I only wish to express from my experince and to counter what I believe is misinterpretation from Da’s devotees.

    You state: “Ramana clearly recommended an introverted inspection of the source of the I-thought via the question “Who am I”, etc. Adi Da understood this approach to still be a form of seeking, and so made that critical point, among others.”

    That is where we disagree. Those more familiar with Ramana Maharshi can state with relative certainty you do not understand the more mature forms of enquiry as Ramana Maharshi actually taught it. I think Conradg will support that assessment also from his own experience in returning to Ramana Maharshi after many years as a Da devotee, and Shiva makes the same point. In saying so, I understand there are books, more so earlier ones, some I have read myself, that give this impression. And I am well aware how Da has consistently but inaccurately Ramana Maharshi’s actual teaching, even if the reason for that is a matter of speculation. It isn’t really that important for most Da devotees who having assumed they have found their Satguru have no need to examine Ramana more accurately, but I do find it somewhat interesting that you can’t see that the one isolated quote Da uses in his critical essay to “prove” that Ramana only had one limited approach is not taken in context or accurately presented in relation to the larger source. But as more contemporary scholars like David Godman have demonstrated, these impressions have more to do with the qualities of those who asked questions and in other cases the understanding of the authors that wrote the answer down than what Ramana Maharshi actually taught. Even Da once, long ago, agreed that what Ramana Maharshi taught was tailored to the questioners and that it was more a matter of how westerners took Ramana Maharshi’s instruction. Also what Da either did not have readily available or chose not to mention was the accounts of those who were privately enlightened from association with Ramana Maharshi to compare with. In some rare cases the liberation was accomplished fairly quickly with direct transmissions and methods far different from the stereotyped and more preparatory level of practice towards mature self-enquiry you imagine.

    You state: “It was only after meeting Bhagavan Adi Da and hearing His instructions that I became suspect of the dissociated introversion that such a practice of Self-Enquiry was resulting in. Regardless of Ramana Maharshi’s actual Realization, what I am talking about right here is his instruction to devotees. Much of it is still based in the Eastern tradition of introversion and world denial (to escape the world), and such was Ramana’s own basic expression in the world – he hardly acknowledged the world, much less gave detailed advice about right life, etc.”

    That too is a misunderstanding of Ramana Maharshi. Ramana Maharshi’s instruction was perfectly appropriate for the devotees who came to him and thus his instruction reflected primarily but not exclusively the culture he lived in. For one thing, the culture most of his devotees cam from did not need so much instruction in basic life practices to begin with, and so he spent more time discouraging spiritual withdrawal than worrying about money, food and sex issues in his devotees. His method for dealing with karmic issues was not just to give detailed advice, but to allow the presence to do the work (a much more graceful process than seen in the community discipline of Adidam. And one that had better practical results over the long term. That some number actually became enlightened through association with Ramana Maharshi without spending decades doing anything like the type of self-enquiry approach you describe is practical evidence that it worked.

    I notice you say: “Adi Da has always very respectfully embraced all true religious and spiritual traditions, and has made great sense of them in His Basket of Tolerance essays. Whatever egos might want to interpret His statements to imply – He always embraces everyone, regardless of religion, race, etc. Adi Da (Adidam) is utterly inclusive, not anything like fundamentalism with its exclusive salvation messages, etc.”

    The problem with that statement is for one thing that as you well know, he did not see Nisargadatta when alive. Nor did he see those like Sri Ranjit (Nisargadatta’s co-disciple), Ammachi, Papaji, or even those like Robert Adams, readily available. If he really thought his Realization was beyond theirs, and if there was anyone who might have been able to really make use of his physical presence and recognize his claims if it were really what he claimed, it would have been such figures who deserved his company. And outside of that, the best way to describe Basket of Tolerance is like that of his criticism of Ramana Maharshi, stereotyping and damning with faint praise.

    You say: “Regarding the non-duality traditions, for instance, pictures of Sri Ramana Maharshi yield a sense of absolute sublimity, but also a sense of inwardness, and exclusive of outward life.”

    Identification with the Self it seems inward to “us” who identify with form, but is neither internal or external, and the outer world as we see it is a pale, karmic reflection. This absolute serenity you describe and the value placed on it over all other physical signs is the primary difference between those drawn to those like Ramana and those whose tendencies draw them to Da’s approach.

    You state: “In all the years of being in Adi Da’s physical Company and feeling innumerable moments and pictures of Him, I never have a sense of any point-of-view being assumed…had I witnessed any form of self-consciousness or point-of-view (ego-I) with Him under ANY circumstance, I would have left.”

    I believe that you would have left had you seen it, and that there is a karmic purpose in you not seeing it. Da was far more fluid and expansive in physical, mental and energetic terms than most can imagine, and so it can appear that way, as I well know. We will just have to disagree about the interpretation of your observations.

    You say: “For the record, I am not some starry-eyed spiritual enthusiast that has been deluded by shakti experiences. I have always tested everything I have been given, and never have blindly believed anything – and besides, I am too much of a scientifically-inclined doubting type to do such a thing.”

    Join the club, certainly Conradg from what I have seen fits in that approach as well. So what is it that I am saying then?

  102. sutu

    Like vultures descending upon the carcass?

    What do any of us really know about Adi Da, or Ramana Maharshi, the Non-Dual or ourselves?

    From out of what process, background, social structure and mind do we arrive at, and give so much value to, our points of view…?

    Quiet. Eat. Rest. The flesh is still fresh… this is what we do here, we eat one another. It’s what we still are… how we communicate.

    All this dry philosophy and filtered points of view… what are any of us saying…? Who will we next devour?

    Regardless of whether you’re a devotee, or agree with Adi Da or not, be bettered through whatever you respond or react to and move on to a life that is simpler and richer for it…. no ?

    In a lion’s den one does not tend to find a sweet kitty or a pure saint, one finds a sheer supermarket of untamed, wild energy. No surprises to those (sadly too few) who know a lion from a house-cat… thus all the crying and complaining… it’s called growing up… may it come fast…

    Adi Da was, is No Thing. Our points of view… we’re all wrong…

  103. Feel4God

    @ AKASHA – Adi Da has always spoken of His Lineage, which includes Swami Muktananda, the Goddess, etc. – so yes, there would be similar Teachings as you point out, but Adi Da constantly teaches us to transcend the search at all levels because no conditionality will ever cause realization of the Unconditional. Adi Da’s Teachings on no-seeking are clearly non-dual in nature.

    @ shiva – I agree with you that Ramana was looking to reveal the “I” as an illusion, but he certainly characterized the practice as an interior one. Here is a very typical exchange:

    V.: Am I to concentrate on the thought: ‘Who am I?’

    Ramana: It means that you must concentrate to see where the ‘I’ thought arises. Instead of looking outwards, look inwards and see where the ‘I’ thought arises.

    Also, Ramana spoke about seeking the source of “I” as a means to make it vanish, etc., etc.

    I am very familiar with Ramana’s Teachings, and have several of his books still. Had Ramana been alive when I first studied his works 40+ years ago, I would have gone to him. Obviously he was always pointing people to the absolute Self, though he usually spoke in terms of seeking its realization via inward-turned Self-enquiry on the I-thought, and generally about dissociation from the outside world and all of its distractions.

    I have often thought that the Self-enquiry Ramana would have given his closest disciples had he fully assumed the Guru function, would be the same “Who am I?” but with the “I” referring to Ramana himself – not the illusory “I-thought” of the disciple doing the Self-enquiry.

    Regardless, Ramana did not completely assume the Guru function in the fullest manner that Adi Da has. And Adi Da actually admonishes us to find out Who He Is – not who “I” am. He is God-Realized, I am not – so let’s see, which would be more effective to meditate on: the Acausal Divine Reality in Person or my illusory “I-thought”? A no-brainer, really!

    And yeah, I understand ultimately I am that same One – but such mental affirmations are just that – talking school yak-yak and lead to further mental fixation, with perhaps an occasional glimpse of the Witness Consciousness. However, in Adidam, after preparing the foundation, we are to tacitly assert the Witness moment to moment – not as some kind of mentally-based exercise, but in direct devotional recognition of Bhagavan Adi Da, the Acausal Reality.

    shiva, you say:
    “but again. back to the basics. non-duality. there is ONLY ONE – without a second. how can anybody claim exclusivity on the ONE? adi da, however, did just that. and in so doing he has completely disqualified himself as a spiritual teacher.”

    Hahahaha! So there is some kind of cosmic ruling about this? Did you decide this or did someone else? I never got the memo! ;)

    Seriously though, to state that Adi Da is not a spiritual teacher is absurd! Have you thoroughly studied His Works?

    Ok, as I have already posted, Adi Da confesses absolutely no separation with any conditional arising whatsoever. He has always told us that we are that same One – but don’t just be a fool and think that because it is “always already the case”, that we are – presto! – God-Realized! Only the One who is absolutely and altogether the Acausal Divine Reality can truly make such a confession for real.

    Also, I have mentioned a few times on this thread of my own innumerable accounts of never seeing anything but Adi Da’s intrinsic egolessness, beyond all point-of-view. Such devotional recognition is the Divine Self, is Translation, is Da. That is the practice (Adidam) in its simplest terms.

    Well thanks for responding at least in the vein of non-duality, shiva. I almost gave up on this thread given all the negativity being posted during this very emotional time for us Adi Da lovers. Off to bed, it is getting late here.

  104. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    Interesting viewpoint about Ramana and Da. I came at it from the opposite direction. I was a devotee of Da for almost three decades, and imbibed all of his teachings and criticisms to the core, including his criticism of Ramana. After I left, I re-examined Ramana’s teachings, and found that Da had clearly misunderstood them. Particularly in relation to the matter of “introversion”, it is a serious misunderstanding of Ramana’s use of that word to think that it refers to the psychological disposition we normally call “introverted”, in which one becomes disassociated from outward life and fixated upon one’s subjectivity. It really has nothing to do with that, though admittedly not just Da, but many who casually study and try to practice self-enquiry make this mistake. Self-enquiry as taught by Ramana is nothing more than feeling deeply into the very sense of self that is at the core of all experiences. It does not involve a disassociation from objects, just a freedom from becoming fixated upon them. Similarly, it does not involve a disassociated fixation upon the inward, subjective dimenions, but again merely a freedom from any fixation upon that. Feeling into the sense of self directly reveals that there is no such thing, and the prior freedom of our innate being becomes increasingly obvious and unmistakable. I could describe in detail the many errors Adi Da made in his criticisms of Ramana, and how his lack of understanding of Ramana reveals his own failure to fully realize, but I’m not sure you would be interested, and this is probably not the time or the place.

    And btw, you should also be aware that Adi Da quite commonly made many rude, angry, and rather gross put-downs of other spiritual teachers, including Ramana, Nisargadatta, Muktananda, and many others, so it’s hard to see how his devotees can object when others sometimes address him with similarly disrespectful words. It’s not my style, but I think being prissy about that sort of thing just doesn’t work if you are going to be a serious devotee of someone as outspoken as Adi Da was.

  105. Conradg

    Akasha makes a good point about Da’s involvement with the doctrines of Kashmir Shaivism. His human Gurus – Swamis Rudrananda and Muktananda – were part of the Kashmir Shaivism teachings, and Da was strongly influenced by them in almost every aspect of his teaching, and especially in his “tantric” approach to life practice. It also helps explain his misunderstanding of Ramana and advaita altogether to see him as a Kashmir Shaivite. For example, the criticism of Ramana as “introverted” is a classic Kashmir Shaivite reaction to advaitic teachings. Kashmir Shaivism tends to be wedded to the idea of “this world is Divine”, whereas advaita says that there is only God, which is quite a different thing. Da favored the extroversion of attention, upon himself as a Divine Object, but I think we see where that ends up.

  106. Conradg

    Wes, it’s great to hear from you, very beautiful and moving. Hope our paths cross again one day.

    Slyder, great to hear from you too. I’m trying to remember you from that retreat in Hawaii. I recall a guy from Boston, a poet I think. Was that you? Anyway, you make great good sense. Glad to hear you managed to reclaim some semblance of sanity from those years. It was kinda fun though, particularly that retreat.

  107. Stephanie

    Many points of view are written here. Those who respond to Adi Da Samraj are weary of the separate self with its endless points of view. The Way of Adidam is about understanding and relinquishing the separate self and losing point of view. That egoless Realization is what Adi Da Samraj eternally Transmits and what the Way of Adidam is founded in. One must be intensively devoted to That in order to Realize It, and all that Adi Da Samraj did or said in His physical Lifetime only served that devotion to the Transcendental Reality that is beyond point of view. Devotion to “Him” is only devotion to Reality Itself. There was never any ego or separate one there that I ever could feel or see any signs of in more than thirty years of close contact. The egoless condition can only be felt by the heart, it is not a matter of argument. Guru devotion has thousands of years of history, but is quite odd in the west, and thus some understandably react to this function, especially because there are so few true gurus here in consumer-land. Adi Da Samraj simply and vulnerably makes the offer of relationship for those who respond to His egoless State and find the Way of Adidam attractive. Those who are with Him find that there is indeed a process of ego-dissolution occurring, however slow it may seem to be from “inside” or “outside”. Certainly His Mahasamadhi has intensified His Presence. We do all we can to not communicate a cultic attitude, but we are just ordinary people doing our best to understand and grow.

  108. Stevie in Wonderland

    Wow! This really is getting Hot! For whatever reason, this has become the place for discussion between those in, those that were in and those that were on the outside looking in. This type of real communication was never possible while he was alive! I think we all deeply respect the right for anyone to mourn and grieve the passing of a loved one. However, Adi-Da was not the “usual man”. His rejection of all other traditions and ways set him apart (as he wanted) and his influence on so many lives make his life liable for criticism. If you don’t want to read anything critical,or anything you may find offensive, don’t log on and only read what Adidam tells you to read. So many critics, like me, are still grateful for the man/teaching that was adi-da, but while being grateful we are still critical. Is that cause to reject everything we write? Surely any intelligent person can understand the need for dialogue? His early teaching is a truly wonderful new way of describing the spiritual process and the “Man of Understanding” a great literary contribution to the world store of spiritual writing. His description of his full enlightenment, however, is somewhat dubious. Remember, he “fucked the Shakti’s brains loose!” No compassionate embrace there! Just a recipe for the hyper-macho mysogyny that characterized his relationship to men and women, all of us, from then on. Top Dog, Pack Leader that all good pups were encouraged to look up to, worship, emulate, copy and then be criticized for doing exactly that. Crazy wise teaching? Or just trying to “fuck all our brains loose”? Who was the one that “fucked the shakti?” God? The Divine? Shiva? Non-dual Consciousnes? We devotees and ex-devotees alike let so much slip by our morality sensors. ..and if I personally learnt one thing it was to trust my own sense of morality. Thank you! The clues were there from the beginning. Feel4God is offended if anyone calls his guru “Frankie” .Why? Is the guru limited by name? Wasn’t he out to offend all egos? Does the name “Frankie” upset you and cause your image to get wobbly? Examine your image and what it means to you. Who is/was this Da or Frankie? If your own consciousness has been realized, where is another, or even a Great Other? From a non-dual perspective, “Who is to be offended?” I dread to think of the church that may be set up to enshrine Da’s One and Only True etc. As previously stated, all disagreement with The Glorious Leader was/is seen as the work of “dissidents” or “bruised egos”. Well, that’s that then; you, on the inside have obviously got the non-egoic p.o.v. well us that left are all bound for hell and damnation. Wake Up! The “inner circle” found it absolutely acceptable to attack, abuse, crush and destroy all those with contrary p.ov. or doubts, complaints and criticisms,just as he did. Wake Up! You’re in a cult! Even, A Great Cult! Break Free! De-programme yourself and breathe freely again. Burn the DVD’s books and photos! Come back to the real world and see what happens. You’ll find it difficult at first, but, believe me, life really is the best teacher there is. Pretty soon you’ll see that there was one set of rules for him, and by default the community, the bearers of the one true one’s message, but another rule for any doubters or non-believers; the same old double-speak that meant only the yes-men were accepted. No fun fundamentalism…plain ole plain ole..Is that transcendence? Those who are still in the club and, yes, egoically attached to an image of truth will find it hard to let go of this image. He was a man, period. Just as Ramana, Buddha etc. Everyone shits.Their legacy speaks about who they were. Ramana saw everyone as the Self and enabled numerous realizers. Buddha saw everyone as the Buddha and enabled numerous realizers. Da, well he talked the talk, but his actions certainly didn’t conform to his speech….and realizers? On this there can be no argument; he commanded the worship and subservience of all, and any who questioned were expelled from his court. He unquestionably demanded absolute power and we all know where that leads.. Those who are angry are angry. Those who criticize are critical. Those who a true believers, believe..Let’s not get caught up on who is “right”. For every one there will be a different p.o.v. Let’s be able to accept all these perspectives at once. He will remain a mystery, a warning, a paradox, a deeply flawed human being, and at least, from this perspective, a clear example of a ma with great potential that failed because of his unexamined unconscious motives. Time to feed the dog and get to work…’May a thousand flowers bloom, may a thousand schools of thought contend!’ The Guru is dead! Long Live the Guru!

  109. blisscake

    OK its late from the Blissful heaven Loca in Fiji… many hours of chanting and dissolving… Thank you Lord… You did not leave us Your presence is brighter and more attractive then ever…

    what a wonder… many more people here now.. and the grieving has become mixed with a great joy.. most of us are westerners and what do we know of the wonders of enlightenment… so i guess it was kind of scary on a level when He left the Body.. for me at least.. kind of freaked me out.. and then to reconnect with the One He always was in feeling and really get it… He Never left.. as He said He would.. “i will never leave you” OK so here is a gift for you Lovers of the Bright one.. (the miserable anti Da friends on this site unfortunatly you will not cry with an open heart when you watch this but if you want you can anyway !!!)

    http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=FXtJ4x0kE7w

    Any way over the last days this process for me of descovering the continuation of His Brightness so strong has healed something relative to death… i read some comment about Him dieing quickly.. it was incredebly quick infact it was instant.. He had said it would be.. so many signs come around now.. the piece of art he was working on that day was about Death.. the title of the piece included the word five.. the time of His death..5.05 and the reason for His death was totally unknown.. His heart just stopped.. unyet His health was perfect.. But again those who Love The Bright One it is important to understand what Happened in 2000 to understand the miracle of these last years we have had with HIm…
    Whatever.. more then that and for me what has been totally profound being here now is that the deepening process that started in the transmission sittings with HIm just over a week ago.. continues now.. there is no difference.. It is of coarse sad and hard to come to terms with the knowledge that you will never see the enlightened form so totally translucent in this last year.. i could not believe it when i saw Him this year he was so much more vonarable, like a tissue paper lantern, glowing through translucent skin.. I looked at His hands in one Darshan, I dont know why but the beauty of them blew my mind… Oh how i longed to touch His hand. He said one time that one day we would realize that we had treated Him shamefully in this life… Lovers of the Bright One we knew it was true when He said it… and Now that becomes more evident, He said you left me in my room watching TV… well we did.. and Now you know that there will be thousands apon thousands that will weep that they never saw His bodily incarnation and would have sat outside that room for weeks for just a glimps..
    BUT what to do but turn again to the portal to the Brightness.. The heart of All and All.. why are some chosen to see and others not.. i have no idea… Do you ever get lost in His eyes… what a wonder what a marvel to just gaze in His eyes… we just made a film of him sitting in Darshan but used a lens to shoot very close up.. i will share some of these with you lovers of the Bright One… when i get an edit together.. we watched some last night.. Now His body is not here the sight of it is some how so much more potent.. like what you cant have you want even more.. the bloody miracle of it.. looking at His Darshan like this reminds me of days in nature on Mushrooms, when you spend hours getting into looking at a cloud or a flower endlessly lost in the unfolding perfection…

    OK got to get to bed… but dear dear friends here is another morsel of unfolding Bright perfection in the form of words… from the Alethion

    When Narcissus
    looks into the water,
    he sees himself.

    When I am recognized,
    the Water Itself
    Is Found.

    With More Love then i could possably self generate Blisscake

  110. shiva

    stephanie and others mention certain perceived benefits through their association with adi da. they talk about “ego-dissolution” and “heart-openings” for example.

    that makes me wonder if we were part of the same organization!?

    as i mentioned i spent many hundreds of hours in adi da’s direct company performing an (at the time) essential service for him for which i had special skills. i also want to stress again that i have no personal reasons to be disgruntled. as i said adi da and the ruchiradamas always treated me well. the same, however, cannot be said for many, many other people. i have personally witnessed adi da treating many other people very badly and in a despotic manner. there were always rationalizations for such behavior and in the beginning i actually bought that. but from my observations – and i had PLENTY of them – there was little to no ego-dissolution going on. quite the opposite! there was EXTREMELY ugly politics going on around him. and adi da always put the same punks into positions of power, where it was clear to everyone where it would lead (and did): to more such ugly politics because many of the old-timers in power were extremely power-hungry. those characters TRIED to get at me because i opened my mouth about things i observed but they never could because the ruchiradamas protected me (since adi da needed me) – much to their dismay.

    so, while i was not personally effected, i saw what those ugly power games did to some of my friends and to the community in general. there was little to no ego-dissolving growth observable by me, heart-openings were usually limited to darshans (about the reasons i can only speculate) and very short-lived. people in adi da’s direct proximity (and i had plenty of opportunity to observe them) suffered from the same inflated ego as adi da did. and if anything the egos around him became more inflated!

    this is my honest observation. i wanted to believe in adi da. i really did. i was at the time VERY happy to serve him so intimately and saw it as an incredible opportunity to grow. and i had and have no personal reasons to be disgruntled.
    whatever i wrote here in this blog are either my honest opinions or my honest observations. and yes, i saw many people suffer from malnutrition because there was no money to buy decent food. and from what i hear that hasn’t changed much (although there are seasonal variations, depending on what can be grown on the island at any given moment). food-shortage was not constant, but there were long periods of it. the reason there was no money to buy decent food was that MOST of it went into adi da’s personal collections, entertainment systems and stuff like that. i saw it with my own eyes and there is no room for interpretation. a legal renunciate? not by any stretch of the definition! maybe there were legal tricks but he most certainly personally owned and controlled all of it.

    also, i have personally witnessed how his literature was manipulated to fit the truth. one example that sticks out is one of adi da’s famous prophecies from the early 80s where he predicted certain events to occur 20 years later. when it was clear they did not and would not occur they were simply removed from the literature. those manipulations are a fact and they leave no room for interpretation. i confronted the editors about that and all they could do was give phony and evasive reasoning that no intelligent person could possibly accept. i am not sure if all of the editors were altogether comfortable with it but there were certain hard-liners in the editorial department who may have actually initiated that manipulation (i am not altogether certain about it but i have reason to believe).

    the main reason i am here in this blog, however, are not my accounts above. i only mentioned them to balance out some of the – in my opinion naive and starry-eyed – statements made by some current devotees. my main reason to be here in this blog about non-duality is the fact that adi da’s teaching doesn’t hold up against an informed non-dual inspection. i believe that i and others here have made that convincingly clear.

    and yes, Feel4God, there is definitely some cosmic ruling out on that one. you must have missed the memo! ;-)

  111. NC

    The reason I can be compassionate towards those who cannot appreciate Samaraj Adi Da is that I can see the suffering behind the words.
    After I left the community I went into a downward spiral. I only managed to see Beloved a few times after when given an open invite. I knew then that He loved all of us who had left him no matter what.
    I had to get myself in a 12 step program because I was succumbing to all kinds of vices. I had become an alcoholic, vicodin addict with an eating disorder. I was giving in to all the patterns of my family of origin.
    I remember once being invited to sit with him, I weighed in about 225 pounds. I’m not a tall woman, so that extra poundage showed big time. I was a little embarrassed to go before Him, but I hI had become some what indifferent to the whole guru devotee relationship(I was doing it out of curiosity I told myself). The minute I saw him I just laid my big butt down before him in full prostration, my heart leaping out of my chest. It was in that moment, I knew my connection to him was unbreakable. He wasn’t my rock star guru, He was the source of unconditional love. Indifferent to the personality I put before him, he only saw the divine reality that outshined “me”.
    I continue to go to 12 step meetings because it is a gateway for me to embrace my spiritual practice again. I’ve lost most of the weight and live in a sober manner. I’m not sure if I will ever become a formal student again, but I will demomstrate my love and respect for Him that loved the truth so deeply. May grace allow me to fall into that well so I never have to suffer feelings of separation from him.
    The one thing I’ve learned in my 12 step program, is to not do other people’s inventory, and turn it over to my higher power. That being said, and I say this with all respect, is the only reason I can put up with all you yahoos. :-) Well that, and I’m basically one too. The truth is we all arise in God. There is only That One. Put whatever name you want on it.
    Blessings to all of you.
    May I rest in the arms of my Beloved forever.

  112. NC

    P.S. I’m not sorry if I offend you, or if you offend me. Pearls of wisdom can come from grains of sand rubbing up against each other.

  113. mistapita

    Hi to all on this great discussion list… this is mostly a response to **puonamu**.

    I feel much of what you are saying. I have been a devotee of Adi Da since 1983 and spent a lot of time in Fiji. So I’ve been up close and done the regional thing. About 10 years ago I went the route of having my own family, and in many respects are what you would probably call a more ‘conventional looking’ devotee.

    In my own case, although I have been roundly criticised by the Guru many times, I always felt his embrace personally in terms of my family and loved ones. Indeed much to the chagrin of the cultural authorities, I have had my children go to darshan directly approved by QSP. On several occassions very small and intimate sittings.

    So it really is a paradox and not fathomable. There are a lot of aspects to the way this organisation has operated that are not ideal. Nonetheless you have to keep your integrity and stick with your feeling as much as you can.

    The way I have come to look at it is that Beloved was an *intervention* in this dark place to which we have all come for our various reasons. He intervened into a culture (i.e. western, materialistic, profoundly selfish) that really had no idea on how to respond to such a One. So all in all it has been somewhat messy, hard to comprehend with the conventional mind. However, for my part I am eternally grateful that I had the opportunity to know Him while he was associated with the body.

    On initial reading, the description of your situation does not sound like something to me that Beloved would have approved. In my experience, He always called us to *rightly* respond to him and not neglect our duty.

    Stay strong, whereever you are. FYI… unless your husband has a Fiji residence permit or work permit, he won’t get in the country with a one way ticket (need a return ticket for a visitors visa).

  114. NC

    Mistapita, Thank you for your thoughtful response.
    It just goes to show that people from every walk of life, or point of view have responded to Samaraj Adi Da.
    In spite of everything we may represent as egos, if our heart is open we will be received. Having once been in leadership, I know how difficult it can be to act with integrity. It’s an amazing sadhana. I definitely couldn’t take the heat of it. You have to be willing to be seen, and function through the embarrassment of making a lot of mistakes, and a lot of expectation from others to be the perfect devotee.
    I appreciated what you said about responding “rightly” to him. This is something I feel I’ve failed miserably at, and I think it is part of my grieving process. Now it seems I can only turn to him for comfort by watching darshan videos, and by hearing leelas of people such as yourself.
    Even the stories of those who criticize him are part of the legacy of what he left us with. In truth we can see that he will never leave us.

  115. Feel4God

    Very beautifully said, Stephanie. Thank you.

    Stevie in Wonderland – Sheesh! Try some paragraph markers, dude! I almost missed your comment to me in that wall of text. Your use of ironic names for Adi Da just shows your immaturity – your adolescence to be more precise – and as I said before, undermines your communication. This is true relative to any communication in life – if you communicate with hatred and separation in your speech, people will tend to shut you out because no one wants to eat your shit. And your attempt to justify your nastiness is just more of your own reaction – it is not positive, constructive criticism when you do that. You are being very disrespectful with that kind of childish name-calling – and no, your adolescence does not undermine my image of Adi Da. Remember, it is not based on belief or concepts – simply recognition of Who He Is.

    I have read all these posts and can clearly discern those that are still respectful in their criticism and those who are looking to get their rocks off and justify their own choices once again. So Stevie in Wonderland, I “Feel4God” ;) in these moments – for Adi Da to have given so much and to have yours and others’ name-calling being posted here is sad, indeed.

    Anyway…us Westerners want to be consoled in our body-minds – so we tend to look for and consume every kind of pleasure. We expect our gurus to even provide such pleasure for us – and if they do not, we tend to get very reactive in one form or another. There is no question with the great devotees in India about the need for Guru devotion and obedience. But obedience in the West flies in the face of us Westerners, stuck in our adolescent mindset and a need to feel equal to everyone and everything at all levels, especially spiritual.

    J. Krishnamurti really helped to popularize the talking school notion of enlightenment in the West. No need for a guru, he would say – but Westerners generally took this totally out of context and ran with this message! You mean I can be enlightened by me realizing my one true Self? Yippee! I don’t have to be accountable to anyone! And especially screw all those damn bodily disciplines!

    But who has actually realized the Great One without the Guru? Without real recognition of God, His Grace, submission, and right life disciplines there cannot be transcendence of the ego. Who is going to do that – the ego?

    Most of what I read from the critics here seems basically what I just described – an adolescent reaction to the Guru and the need for obedience. I can certainly relate to shiva’s and others’ thoughts about the community around the Guru, especially in the very early days. It was for this reason I constantly hoped to see if Bhagavan would show some form of egoity – so I could split the community! It was a very rough and tumble group – and I had just come from India, meditating some 8 hours a day (Ramana “style”), straight into the Garbage and the Goddess period! If it had not been for Master Adi Da ALWAYS only being the Heart beyond all egoity – I would be so out of there. Believe me, I looked for at least two years but I could not see any ego in Him – no matter how crazy things got!

    shiva – I also considered and wondered why Adi Da allowed some of the craziest people to run things – like in the early seventies, a “mafioso” type was in charge of administration, etc. But keep in mind, Adi Da always wanted to create a crisis for our conventional mindset about the ways things “should be”. He always told us that His purpose is to create a crisis in our lives to awaken us from this awful egoic dream. I bow in deepest gratitude for His persistence and feel Him ever Present and pervading my life more than ever. He is utterly Available!

    I do sympathize with those posting here who are confessing all their difficulties with Adidam – and I am also very sorry you did not hang in there through thick and thin, although understandably each person makes their own choices. The community can always use the help of good people – and especially those who have gone beyond their need to feel betrayed and to reject others in order to justify their own sense of separative existence.

    Conradg says:
    “Self-enquiry as taught by Ramana is nothing more than feeling deeply into the very sense of self that is at the core of all experiences. It does not involve a disassociation from objects, just a freedom from becoming fixated upon them. Similarly, it does not involve a disassociated fixation upon the inward, subjective dimenions, but again merely a freedom from any fixation upon that. Feeling into the sense of self directly reveals that there is no such thing, and the prior freedom of our innate being becomes increasingly obvious and unmistakable.”

    Conradg, I understand that is what ultimately Ramana was pointing at – but throughout his books he speaks about finding the source of the I-thought by concentrating within. He says this over and over – even relative to the Guru:

    Ramana: The Sad-Guru is within.
    Devotee: The Sad-Guru is necessary to guide me to understand that fact.
    Ramana: The Sad-Guru is within you.
    Devotee: I want a visible Guru.
    Ramana: That visible Guru says that he is within.

    shiva says:
    “my main reason to be here in this blog about non-duality is the fact that adi da’s teaching doesn’t hold up against an informed non-dual inspection. i believe that i and others here have made that convincingly clear.”

    Well, not really. What do you make of the book title “Not Two Is Peace”?

    There are endless examples that I could post here. His Aletheon masterwork will be published next year – we have been receiving lots of Essays from it – great examples of Acausal Reality Speaking!

    From “Reality Itself Is The Way” by Adi Da Samraj (which includes Essays from The Aletheon and this has been published):

    “Consider” This:
    All of this conditional “world” passes.
    Thus, all of this appearance is already dead.

    Watch!
    Be Free.
    Stand with Me–
    Where I Am, now.

    No sentimentality –
    All-Love, All-Freedom.
    The Witness-Consciousness Itself,
    Invested in the Perfect “Place”.

    Invest yourself in This Freedom.
    “Know” It – now.

    There is not anything you can do
    to “otherwise” the always dying nature
    of the conditional domain.

    Likewise,
    you cannot Be
    in any other place
    than Standing As I Am.

    All forms pass.
    Watch them pass.
    Watch!
    You Are the Witness-Only.

    This appearance passes – will pass.
    Even now, it is the past.
    What arises is a shadow of the absent.

    Find Me out.
    There is not anything you can do
    to “otherwise” the always dying nature
    of the conditional domain.
    Nevertheless,
    you Are Always Already Standing with Me,
    in My Indifferent “Place” –
    if only you will find Me out.

    This conditional “world” passes.
    This “everything” always dies.
    Even this can be tacitly (merely) observed –
    by Always Prior Standing As Mere Witness here.
    Therefore, Fall Awake in Me!

  116. AKASHA

    I know, more of the same. But hey, it feels cathartic to get if off my chest after 19 years out of the madness.

    Who can forget, those who were there, the world yajna debacle (right after his first ‘death’)? The era of the orange robed, Swami Da-Love Ananda?
    The call to renunciation (meaning give every nickle you have to support the bottomless money pit). The back biting, the betrayals, the out and out lying. Not to mention the all night meetings with the entire community of devotees, to wear you down with the most outrageous guilt trips just to cough up more and more money. There were those in the community who sold their home and gave it all away to to what? Nothing! Nothing because it all fell apart anyway. They ended up living in a group home with nothing to show for it. And yes, they ended up divorcing due to the stress of it all. That was the end of it for me. Lies, abuse, endless emotional attack if you didn’t support the program. And what was Da’s response to all of this? Just more of the endless stream of rants. “If you don’t measure up and do it, I’m Leaving!” I remember saying to a fellow devotee, “I wish he would just leave. I’m tired of his endless, angry daddy routine.” And just to set the record strait where I came out in all of this. I had to declare bankruptcy for maxing out every one of my credit cards with no way to pay them back (tens of thousands)….a very very stupid me (yes, I take full responsability for it).

    And when I bailed from the community I got those wonderful spiritual threat phone calls saying that those who leave their guru are, basically, damned to Rudra hell! What love and compassion, hey? Anyway, what was “Bubba Free-John’s” early pronouncement? “Dead Gurus can’t kick ass!” Should have gotten the clue right then and there. But it sounded cute and oh-so-spiritual at the time.

    Well, that’s the end of my rant.

  117. Feel4God

    NC says:
    “The minute I saw him I just laid my big butt down before him in full prostration, my heart leaping out of my chest. It was in that moment, I knew my connection to him was unbreakable. He wasn’t my rock star guru, He was the source of unconditional love. Indifferent to the personality I put before him, he only saw the divine reality that outshined “me”.”

    That is a great leela and testimony, NC! The very best to you!

  118. Feel4God

    @ Former Follower and Critic Says – I just now saw your response to my prior post. I appreciate your feedback and thoughtful consideration. I still take issue with much of what you say and presume, but so be it for now.

    Adi Da is my Heart Master eternally – this utterly obvious heart recognition is a blissful discriminating loving certainty beyond all conditionality – It is Acausal Reality, the Self of all, Da! And I am happy for anyone who has found the joy of devotional recognition of their Spiritual Master.

  119. NC

    It’s not that I don’t think the community is not insane…the whole world is insane…I’m insane but all in all I’ve met more devotees that have been humbled by the sweat of their spiritual practice. It’s not easy to hang in there through the demands that Samaraj Adi Da placed before us. To think that we as unelightened human beings could do that with perfect equanimity is unreasonable. He was doing something radically different, and there was an urgency to what he wanted to accomplish…so he called out fiercely at times.
    I’m one of those poor devotees, but honestly, I realize it’s a life strategy. I no longer blame myself, or the community for it. It’s just a difficult patterning I’ve struggled with in this lifetime…but truthfully I do not resent any luxury that Samaraj Adi Da had. He deserved it all, and more. It was for us that he asked for it. He wanted to create a space that was sacred, a place that’s construction was based on divine wisdom, rather than the ordinary constructs of a limited ego. If anyone here has spent any time on these sanctuaries Beloved has constructed they would realize the incredible gift to the world they represent. We are extremely lucky to have them. Whenever I am at one, I’m given an incredible gift.

  120. no124c41

    I have enjoyed reading these posts, and feel like speaking as at a wake.
    The news of Adi Da’s death has been poignant for me even though I am long gone from being his devotee or associating with the community. In the mid-70’s I came across the amazing teaching and became a formal friend, then a formal student, then a devotee giving it everything I had to give from devotion to effort and money. I thought I was such a lucky man! The peak of the glory days for me was the “Love of the God-man” celebration in 1984.
    But then things began to go south, and by the time of the “Divine Emergence” in 1986, I was feeling that something was off. It took a couple of years of chaos and self-doubt before I left, but I still maintained a thread of connection by supporting the “Basket of Tolerance”, and I meanwhile took up life as a Vajrayana Buddhist.
    I went to the Sanctuary in Kuai in 1996 as a possible member of the “3rd Congregation”, but the trip only served to convince me that I didn’t want anything to do with Adi-Da any more. And with the news that the Basket of Tolerance now had only one fully realized being on the list, I kissed that good-bye as well.
    Many, many, many extreme experiences, stories, emotions, and lessons are mixed into this water under the bridge! I’m sure all ex or current participants know what I mean.
    It took some time, but I finally began standing on my own two feet, trusting the intuition that took me away from Adidam to be at least equal in validity to the intuition that took me into it. I gave up all notions of stages of realization, especially a 6th stage distinct from a 7th, which appeared to me to be more and more spurious. Etc.,etc.
    Now another 12 years have passed, and Adi Da has died. I never related to him as Adi Da, but I still connect to some of the teaching of Bubba Free John and the Way of Divine Ignorance, and feel a Transmission there (gotta capitalize it!) that I can’t dismiss, nor do I want to. The years I was involved were amazing. I could go on and on for and against them, but overall I feel a bitter-sweetness. It was life fully lived, and it was incredible, full of shakti that is hard to find in this world. I am grateful for many things, and thank God I didn’t get too badly burned. But thank God I left.
    I still love my friends in the community and wish you well…

  121. blisscake

    Shiva I love you brother… But I also know you.. to say that Adi Da is not a realized being on a public forum.. is not your style as you very well know that that is absolute Bullshit… and before i knew it was you i was joking that that man who wrote that must be made of concrete !!!! well it was you one of the softest hearts i know but who always as you know to my amazement has a feeling sense (so you tell me) of concrete !!! BUT brother i saw you when you came back from His company and you were bright brother he was flowing off your body..

    So i am utterly disapointed that you would spread such an ugly abusive statement of the man that loved you more then any other…
    that you don’t know that and feel the need to publicly denounce Him when your very friends and intimate are here dissolving in His never ending love is purely an indication of you incredable lack of sensativity and that famous anger of the world and ultimatly dad.

    I am sorry to write this publicly but your own issues regarding not being able to feel Adi Da is not a good enough reason to make a public statement as if you could ever judge such a Great One… and that goes for all of you… shame on you.. He loved more then any of us and we just want to abuse Him… and here is the thing.. as you slip from this world in your death transition you will be flung into The Brightness and that Brightness feels like all pervading extacy of a level like you have (seemingly) never experienced… That Brightness has a name and that name is DA

    with great love… from the heart Blisscake

  122. shiva

    yes, blisscake, dear brother, i know what YOU saw when i came back from the island a few years ago. but that is absolutely not what i saw and felt and knew. otherwise, why would i have left? please note that your interpretations of my state are that: your interpretations. they may not reflect what was really going on.

    again, what i am stating here are my honest opinions and observations. i have no agenda other than to put adi da in his proper place, which i have come to realize is absolutely not the place he proclaimed himself to be in. i know how you feel about adi da and i accept that. hell, my wife is on the island and a very devoted follower and i accept that as well.

    but realize that i am entitled to my own opinion. don’t succumb to the peer pressure in adidam that is highly intolerant towards any but the “official” pov.

    i have met REAL teachers of non-duality since i left adi da. and believe me, brother, there is a WORLD of difference in their attitude, humbleness and truthfulness. they live what they teach. they don’t have the need to manipulate their teachings because it doesn’t fit the truth any more. what i said above about adi da doing that can be verified by anybody. just compare the “mark my words” talk in the old books against the currently publicized version. why would any truthful teacher do that? just a small example.

    please accept that i have very good reasons for my decision to leave adi da and my stance here in this blog.
    please consider that. in love.

  123. NotQuandra

    I loved him once, for many years. I was in his personal service for many of those years. To be clear, I was never a gopi, a wife or a quandra. I was a trusted intimate. I partied with him and I served him and his family. I loved him deeply, dearly, devotedly. I would have done anything for him.

    I left him soon after the 1986 debacle that others have referred to here. It wasn’t just that I didn’t believe he died and returned “for our sake”, though that WAS a bit much. I left because the only realization he led me to was that he wasn’t realized or enlightened.

    I mourned him in my own way in my own time. The loss was total. I lost my dreams, my idealism, my lifestyle, my friends, and very nearly the shirt off my back. It happens. You get what you pay for, some say. I paid for a lie, and that was all I had left by 1986. His “death” then created a true awakening in me. It literally woke me up. For the first time there was no longer any reason not to see the truth. He was a fraud, a total deceit. His death now is a non-event. I am not moved, except to come here and see what people are saying and to speak my own peace.

    I’d love to be there now, a fly on the wall in the rooms where the men gather to decide what to do next. I have a prediction for the future of Adidam.

    They’ll do the mahasamadhi ceremonies. There will be a period of true mourning and a great outpouring of love. Many people will come to the sanctuaries and the centers. Many will experience an increased sense of his presence. Many will feel that he has become them – and they have become him.

    There will be claims of enlightenment. There always were, but Adi Da was quick to slap them down. Fiercely and without mercy. Nobody could have a seventh stage realization but himself. Without his ultimate authority, who could ever say someone is not enlightened.

    There will be fights. People will take sides. Politics will be fierce. It always was in this community. Leaders will emerge, ultimately, those who can convince others of their authority, and they will do battle.

    Perhaps even little Naamleela, now a mature woman, will claim the mantle that was hers at birth. The miracles surrounding her birth. Her mother’s anointing by a dead saint, documented in stories and photos at the time. He said then that she would be his successor. But will she, can she? No one knows if she is capable of being “the guru”. Does she have her father’s transmission? Can she give his devotees what they really want, his shaktipat?

    I predict that they will be able to keep it going for a while. There is so much at stake. So many people have poured their whole lives into his work, his institution, so much money, property all over the world. But without the ultimate attractor, that charisma, that addictive transmission, that booming voice and its mesmerizing message, devotees will no longer have what they came for. They will begin to leave one by one. They will drift away and the community will ultimately begin to fall apart.

    The properties are valuable and expensive to maintain, especially without a steady stream of devotees willing to pay. What happens to the properties? I guess we’ll just have to see. I predict the ultimate feeding frenzy when the time comes.

    And then what of enlightenment and the love they all had for him. Ah well, it was only ever a dream. A marvelous and compelling dream but really nothing more than one madman’s fantasy.

  124. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    In regards to Ramana teaching that “God is within”, yes, he certainly did. And in my early days in Adidam, I was convinced by Da’s teachings that this was an error, that the whole “God is within” was a traditional mistake, and that the Adidam way of extroverting one’s way to God was the true path (through devotional worship of Adi Da as Guru). However, as I saw the very real limitations of Da’s teachings and practices, and the devotional path he taught, I began to reconsider Ramana’s teachings about the Self differently, and came to see that what he was describing as “within” did not correspond to what Adi Da had criticized. When Ramana says that the Self is within, he does not mean “within one’s subjectivity”, thus pointing towards a process of conventional “inwardness” or “introversion” in any disassociated sense. He means literally that God is in the Self position, and that we have to find him there, rather than in objects. He made it very clear, if one studies his teachings more than just in the superficial quotes you mention, that his poining “within” is a way of pointing to the witness and beyond, the prior condition that is our real being. The mind becomes deluded by focusing on objects and seeing itself as existing in a world of objects. “Looking inward” or “introverting attention”, means to reverse that process, to be conscious of consciousness itself, the very souce and condition of the mind that normally is attentive to objects.

    The thing that strikes me as somewhat odd about Da’s criticism of Ramana is that if one examines Da’s teachings about this process, they aren’t actually any different from Ramana’s. Da tries to avoid using the words “within” or “introversion”, but what he describes is essentially the same process of going beyond object-attention, inspecting and feeling beyond the limited ego-“I” sense of self, and awakening to the transcendental Source of these, which is in the Self-Position. I’ve read all the Daist literature on this subject, I was considered something of an expert in it while in Adidam, taught courses in it, etc, was even called by Adi Da himself a scholar on these matters, so I think I have a fair idea what I’m talking about. It appears to me that Da didn’t really have a serious leg to stand on in criticizing Ramana, but was in fact borrowing heavily from Ramana’s own teachings, and those of Advaita altogether, and yet at the same time trying to make himself out as a unique source who was somehow better and greater than his own sources.

    Da’s criticism of Ramana seems to be merely politically motivated, rather than of dharmically substantial weight. I was there for all those years, and I recall all kinds of criticism of Ramana by Da as being somehow withdrawn and disassociated, clearly some mere “six-stager”, when in fact this was not at all true of Ramana. Ramana was a very friendly, relational guy, quite active in the ashram. Even as a body he was a very active, friendly, relational guy, and apart from the very early years when he was going through some kind of yogic process after his realization, he remained that way all his life. He was completely approachable, and kept his door open, literally, 24 hours a day, where any devotee or even stranger could come in and speak to him if they needed to – and many did. He showed zero signs of “inwardness” or disassociation. He was silent a fair amount of the time, but that should not be confused with disassociation. For example, he got up early every morning and served in the ashram kitchen working for hours preparing the food for the day’s meals. He considered this his personal obligation to contribute to the work of one and all in the ongoing functioning of the ashram. How many hours of kitchen work did Adi Da ever perform? Or any kind of actual selfless service to others? Well, we know that just wasn’t his thing. He was too busy persuing the kind of outward enjoyments that a genuine realizer would simply not care about. And yes, I know the logic is that “seventh stage” makes persuing outward enjoyments all okay and right, but let’s be honest, it just doesn’t work that way. The failures of Adidam if nothing else prove that point. Even Da himself seemed to acknowledge that at times. The genuine path is much more like what Ramana taught and lived, and there are very good reasons he did not go down the road Da did. Da’s path was an enjoyable path in some ways, but it was not a path that leads to genuine Self-Realization, as the evidence well shows. For that one needs to re-examine the great traditional sources such as Ramana and others. But let’s be honest, Adidam was never really a serious place for serious practitioners devoted to realization, so it’s not surprising that realization did not result. It was a place to cater to Da’s pursuit of pleasurable enjoyments, art, theology, etc. It was a “theater” as he often described it. The results of that theater have been interesting and sometimes even dramatic, but that is not how the actual spiritual process of realization comes about. Looking at Ramana, one sees a curious absence of all that, and yet a far more productive scene in terms of spiritual maturity and realization. I think that is telling, and why Adi Da will simply never be looked upon as being in the same league with Ramana, despite his great spiritual talents and insights. He really should have listened to others, and received their criticism, rather than spending all his time criticizing everyone else, even the greatest of spiritual realizers, as not being up to his level. He should have examined his level, and seen that it actually fell short, which is why Adidam as a whole has always fallen short of its goals and aspirations. If you want to know what’s been wrong with Adidam all these years, look straight at the top. It’s not the politically motivated insiders and the egos of ordinary devotees, it’s the failings and limitations of Da himself, which he was never able to acknowledge, and thus was unable to address or correct.

  125. Conradg

    In relation to what Stephanie and a few others have said about Da being “egoless”, and not being able to find any “ego” in him, well this is part of the highly personal and subjective nature of the relationship to him. For years I felt similarly. Then one day I was talking with one of Adi Da’s daughters, and this matter came up, and she said she had no problem seeing an ego in him at all. Far from it, she saw ego in him most of the time, in all the ordinary ways that one sees ego in everybody else. This struck me as interesting, that someone so intimately related to him would observe this, when the more “common” type of devotee would always say that Da was “egoless”. And I began to examine my own presumptions, and overtime I began to see that I had just talked myself into seeing everything Da does as egoless, by definition, because I needed to. If I threw away that needy desire for a perfect Guru, however, and simply looked at him for what he actually was and did, it became rather easy to see him acting egoically, just as it was for his own daughter to see him that way.

    But of course even that is subjective. I certainly respect those devotees of Adi Da who say that their confession is that he is without ego, or that he is a perfect realizer. There’s a tradition in India which almost requires the devotees of any Guru to not just speak of their Guru in this way, but to actually believe it and relate to their Guru in this fashion. Even if it’s obvious to others that the Guru in question is very limited and obviously not a true realizer, it’s still considered wrong to condemn or criticize them for it, because their spiritual practice depends upon this process of seeing the Guru as perfect, as an extension of the universal Guru. Unless of course there are issues of excessive abuse, which is what complicates Da’s scene.

    I recall Da himself mentioning this in relation to Meher Baba, when he was asked what he thought of Meher’s claims to being the Avatar of the Age. Da said, that’s really a matter for Meher Baba’s own devotees to work out. The point was that even Da could acknowledge that it was okay for Mehe Baba’s devotees to see him as the Avatar of the Age, whether it was literally true or not. And of course many if not most did, and even still do. But it’s not as if Da felt that he needed to take that claim seriously, or that anyone who wasn’t a devotee of Meher Baba should either. And similarly with Da, it’s really fine for his devotees to worship him unequivocably, to make declarations of his greatness, his perfection, etc., if we merely treat them as purely personal confessions of one’s devotion to God through this particular human-created historical vehicle. There have certainly been less deserving dudes who have been treated this way. It’s just that if Da’s devotees actually expect everyone to agree and affirm their claims and exhortations, they are bound to be disappointed, just as Meher Baba’s devotees were bound to be disappointed if they expected the world to accept and affirm their claim that he was the true Avatar of the Age. In fact, the more aggressively they voice those claims, and criticize those who don’t accept them, the more ridiculous they begin to appear, and the more pointed opposition they arouse.

    One’s ecstatic personal speech of love should not be objectified into a conflict with others. I may think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I am not surprised if there are many other husbands who will make the same claim about their wives, and I am not going to get into a fistfight with them about it, if they point out my wife’s imperfections, and the ridiculousness of my claim. I know it’s a ridiculous claim, but in love one sees such beauty in those one loves that it somehow becomes true, even so. And so there is a great personal truth in the loving confessions of many of Da’s devotees here, and it’s great to hear them. But when such personal confessions of love cross over and try to make objective claims about Da, and assert that he really is greater than everyone else, and the ultimate and unique divine realizer, well, this is just silliness. It’s a husband who cannot accept that his own wife, as much as he loves her, is just a woman like every other woman, he has to put her on the highest pedestal of all, and knock off all the other wives who are loved by their own husbands, so that she can stand on the highest pedestal of all. There’s something neurotic and unhealthy about that impulse, and if the critics of Da point to anything, it’s to that narcissism in Adidam that is most unnerving and off-putting of all.

  126. NC

    NotQuandra, If one claims enlightenment, one will always have to be suspicious. His was a hard school, and perhaps that’s why I will never find myself fully involved again.
    Having been in communications dept. within the community, I got wind of several things that made me feel very ill at ease, but I’ve also been party to some very uncomfortable things….and I allowed that because I was a very undeveloped ego. I hope that with open discourse that we can support the continuation of his message. Just because our experiences have shown us that leadership was less than divine doesn’t mean that the best of people won’t emerge.
    By the way you write beautifully, I feel your heart…and though I don’t share your point of view I respect it.

  127. Stevie in Wonderland

    This comment:

    Adi Da is my Heart Master eternally – this utterly obvious heart recognition is a blissful discriminating loving certainty beyond all conditionality – It is Acausal Reality, the Self of all, Da! And I am happy for anyone who has found the joy of devotional recognition of their Spiritual Master.

    and this comment:

    Stevie in Wonderland – Sheesh! Try some paragraph markers, dude! I almost missed your comment to me in that wall of text. Your use of ironic names for Adi Da just shows your immaturity – your adolescence to be more precise – and as I said before, undermines your communication. This is true relative to any communication in life – if you communicate with hatred and separation in your speech, people will tend to shut you out because no one wants to eat your shit.

    come from the same person,

    Feel4 God…

    What was your experience at the time of writing these words?
    Love? Compassion? Tolerance? Feeling for God? Or the need to attack and silence a p.o.v. that made you feel uneasy? Why? If your devotion to your spiritual heart-master is true; why not shine his deep radiant love towards all? Why only towards club members? Is this Da’s teaching?

    As the great late Bill Hicks said when two Christian fundamentalists got angry with him about his Jesus jokes.
    “You’re Christians, right?” to which they replied, “Yes, we believe in the Lord”. Bill retorted, “Well, forgive me then!”

    These two quotes perfectly demonstrate the double-speak , double-mind that was Da and by extension,the collective ego of the community.i.e. swoon in bliss in god or for the god-man, but attack, abuse and cut down anyone who dares to express a contrary p.o.v. Call them “bruised egos”, “self gurus” “immature”or “adolescent”….even attack them for their imperfect grammar…”sheesh..”Sorry, dude, I’ll try better this time.

    I suspect that none of these quotes express Feel4god’s innermost truth, but are the xpression of one who is not founded in love or tolerance but has deep insecurities and has to shoot down all alternative p.ov. to keep reminding himself that only his guru is the best, his p.o.v. the only valid one.

    Others do it with nations or football teams. It’s called the collective ego.

    Dear Feel4God, if you are really so founded in true devotional recognition? Why so angry?

    Speak Love, Practice Hate!

    Tolerance+ Compassion = Peace

    (but, destroy the “dissidents!”)

    Yes, the writings and some of the talks were sublime. What about the actions? That’s the point.

    This talking the talk but acting in an opposite manner is, in a nutshell, is why I, and countless others, left…immaturity? adolescence? ego? Who knows? At least it was real.

    I watched the video from the ’80’s posted by N.C. …thank you, …wonderful! It took me right back. Really, thank you, I mean that. As I wrote before, I am truly grateful for the sublime talks, literature and the hard school and everything he gave me. Thing was, once one sees through it all, it’s impossible to go backwards and it’s time to graduate, and to go out and get a life.

    The video shows the beautiful side of Da speaking of love to all. Yet in his action as well as love, he also practised control, manipulation and abuse. I truly wish it weren’t true, sorry, Feel4God, it really happened. Was it all O.K? Was it crazy wisdom? Well I guess if that’s true, it’s all crazy wisdom all the time and everywhere, even the criticisms that get your adrenals pumping. I decided it wasn’t O.K. and trusted my deepest heart-feeling.

    The sad thing was that anyone who didn’t jump when told to jump was labelled “adolescent” “egoic” or said to be “self-guruing”.

    No way round that one, dude.

    You are not upset that another one leaves the club or stopped believing……

    I am adolescent. etc.

    So start attacking me now!

    They did back then….

    The fixation with Bliss and “transmission” etc. also seemed

    at odds with the teachings of the greatest realizers

    Obstacles on the way.

    Who gets to experience the Bliss?

    What happens when the Bliss isn’t there?

    This problem for me in the community that Da created was that in his and , by proxy, the devotees addiction to bliss and altered states, simple human personal morality went out the window for many. Finally, for me that was not acceptable and I left. What happened then was a far harder school; living in the world as an ordinary human being with no saviour and no method. No glamorization. No magic. Nothing to defend.

    Try it as an experiment for a month….no guru-swooning for a whole 30 days….see if you can?

    Really.

    Dear Feel4God as you so rightly comment -” if you communicate with hatred and separation in your speech, people will tend to shut you out because no one wants to eat your shit.” Well, guess what? What you see and what you write is a reflection of yourself.

    There is only your own consciousness.

    Not-two .

    Non-dualism.

    Remember?

    While you write that you are “happy for anyone who has found the joy of devotional recognition of their Spiritual Master.” Is that any spiritual master or only yours? What about those that have no spiritual master or found by feeling into their deepest truth that Da was not the way for them…do you feel happy for them? Can you allow them their truth or do you need to dismiss all but the true believers p.o.v?

    When will you start building the gas ovens?

    O Pandava, bowing down and being humble before all, serve all others as Me. In this way you will have My dearest support.

    There is No Other.

    I Am Here.

    With great love to all ,

    Stevie.

    p.s. how’s the grammar this time, dude?

  128. chris boys

    I submitted the following to Guruphiliac (and received some nasty responses–go figure):

    Yes, I know your blog/site is about taking the piss out of Gurus; still, I am a bit disappointed at your response to the passing of Adi Da. Adi Da was never your average phony guru (and I do not even like to use the word “phony”, as what is a guru is a personal matter). Even those who had doubts/reservations about him personally, never doubted that he was an authentic spiritual genius. Just what he accomplished in his life, in his literature and art, has never been remotely approached by any other spiritual teacher in history. (And I am not saying this to compare Adi Da with other Gurus. Ramana Maharshi wrote very little, and Bhagavan Nityananda hardly anything; yet I would never “rate” them as anything less than at the very top level of the Guru echelon.). Many of his books stand as the definitive treatments of certain subjects from the spiritual point of view: Easy Death, The Transmission of Doubt, even Love of the Two Armed Form. His first two books, his biography and the Method of the Siddhas are extraordinary masterpieces. And two, many of his books are taken verbatim from spontaneous talks he gave, even while a bit drunk, and yet they read like Shakespeare.
    I remember how I first became aware of him. It was 1972 and I was 22 and had been practicing TM for four years. I had even met Maharishi personally. Maharashi in person was a radiant being with beautiful, magnetic eyes. He became my standard for a teacher, and in particular I was fascinated with eyes. I was walking past a row of books in a health food store and I looked at this book just in passing (It was the Knee of Listening). I was caught by the picture of the man on the cover and his eyes. Almost without volition I found myself saying to myself, “My God that man has extraordinary eyes.” I looked again and was just floored. They were the most stunning eyes I had ever seen or could imagine.
    Later (after I had left the TM scene and also spent seven years in an ashram in New Mexico) I returned to studying him intensely. I read all of his books (at that time around forty volumes) some several times. I began to have dreams of him. To this day they are the most precious experiences of my life. In the dreams he was exactly as he described: Like your most intimate spiritual friend, and too, this friend was the very force of love bliss. I remember how I never wanted to be in any state but the state of communion with Adi Da I knew in my dreams.
    At the time I was living with a lady who was one of the very first western devotees of Osho. She had known him in a hotel room in Bombay with only two other western students. She loved Osho so much. Her love for Osho always humbled me – because I am an opinionated fellow and this was the time of all of the Oregon ranch stuff, and I tended to get a button about it. But she would always disarm me by her simple and true love for Osho and what she had received from him. On her part, she thought my fascination with Adi Da a bit obsessive. She even asked me why I was always reading his books. I told her simply that if she ever had a dream of him she would know. One day in the morning she woke next to me with a sweet smile and told me that she’d dreamt of him. She said, “Now I know; you were right, to be with him is to be in heaven.”
    I knew and was friends with many devotees of Osho at the time. One was a sort of aberrated film professional who had done almost all of the filming in the ashram in India. He too knew I was really into Adi Da. One day we were having lunch and he said, “You know, I remember one day someone showed Osho the book “Enlightenment of the Whole Body”. Osho examined it and the pictures of Adi Da and then said, “If you can be with this man, you are with a true Buddha.”
    I guess, since your site is about taking the piss out of Gurus, and since Adi Da is especially easy to take the piss out of, since he was the most openly outrageous Guru ever; that I should make some comment on his personal behaviour. I will tell one story. It was told me in great confidence, a confidence I am probably braking by telling it publicly. I don’t care. The man is gone from this earth as the body/persona; and I just want to relate this one incident, which seems to say something about him and the way he taught.
    In the early days when he was Bubba Free John, an incident occurred in his ashram where one of his devotees, who was an ex Green Beret, beat another devotee badly in a fight. Bubba had the ex-Green-Beret fellow brought to him and questioned him intensely about what had happened. He told him that the only way he could do such a thing was that he did not feel what he was doing, the pain he was inflicting. He asked him if he would like to fight his Spiritual Master – if he would like to fight him. The fellow was ashamed and said no, no. But Bubba wouldn’t let him off the hook and egged him on to the point they actually stepped outside and fought tooth and nail. Evidently Bubba got the worst of it and was rather smashed up afterwards. But then he had the fellow come into the house again and discuss it. He asked him if he could feel now what he was doing with his violent behaviour. The man confessed he could and that he was completely shattered by the realization.
    You know, it is okay to be sceptics with cynical humour, and do your dharma by taking the piss out of Gurus, no problem. But if you are serious, I think that you can acknowledge that there is also Dharma with a capital D. That Dharma is almost always incarnated in the form of a Guru; at least traditionally that is where all of the great Dharmas have come from. The Guru may be a relatively benign character on the personal level, but he may not be; he may be a difficult man, crazy even to conventional points of view. But only his devotee knows the Guru in Truth. That devotee has the best, most accurate “point of view” of him. He knows. I was never fortunate enough to have been a true devotee of a Guru. I was closest to Adi Da. I was an appreciator of him, and occasionally let into his world by Grace to catch a glimpse of him in Truth. I will never forget him and am only grateful that I ever heard of him, that I could read his books, that I saw a picture of him, that I heard stories of him, that he touched my life and my dreams.

    Hari Om

  129. Feel4God

    Former Follower and Critic – As I said earlier, I appreciate your consideration, and am re-reading your post now. I agree that the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi were certainly tailored for those that came to him – mostly Easterners. Every Master would necessarily do this – they respond to real questioners and according to their real needs, not just for some intellectual pursuit or whatever. But however we may want to interpret such teachings, Ramana does make references to inward-based techniques. For example:

    Ramana: Think ‘I’ ‘I’ ‘I’ and hold to that one thought to the exclusion of all others.

    Again, I have the utmost respect for Ramana Maharshi, but I have always found Bhagavan Adi Da, and His Teachings beyond all seeking, much more accessible.

    Of course, as you also indicate, given Adi Da appeared in the West, and most of us being Westerners, the details of money, food, and sex were greatly elaborated by Him. As one can see in The Knee of Listening, Adi Da taught Radical Understanding from the beginning – and then when He took on devotees, He also responded to our needs in terms of all aspects of the body-mind. This is something many of us are extremely grateful for, and someday so will many more Westerners (and even Easterners) – as Adi Da’s Teachings are the fullest, most detailed spiritual Teachings ever given to the world, in my (and many others) opinion.

    You said:
    “The problem with that statement is for one thing that as you well know, he did not see Nisargadatta when alive. Nor did he see those like Sri Ranjit (Nisargadatta’s co-disciple), Ammachi, Papaji, or even those like Robert Adams, readily available. If he really thought his Realization was beyond theirs, and if there was anyone who might have been able to really make use of his physical presence and recognize his claims if it were really what he claimed, it would have been such figures who deserved his company.”

    Did Nisargadatta, Sri Ranjit, Ammachi, etc., ask to see Adi Da? If not, what is your criticism really?

    You also said:
    “I believe that you would have left had you seen it, and that there is a karmic purpose in you not seeing it. Da was far more fluid and expansive in physical, mental and energetic terms than most can imagine, and so it can appear that way, as I well know. We will just have to disagree about the interpretation of your observations.”

    With certain Realizers it is heart obvious from looking at their pictures what tradition they represent based on where light/energy is concentrated. I mentioned some examples earlier, and again, only in the person of Adi Da have I ever seen the Heart so utterly Divinely Full – whole bodily and altogether. No sighting or picture I have ever seen of Adi Da shows any egoic focusing in the being, psyche, mind, body, heart. And as I have mentioned, this direct heart recognition of Who He Is, is why I am His devotee and the actual basis for my devotional response to Him. And, of course, His Teachings are also a real confirmation, support, and means to such recognition.

    Also, you said:
    “…such a conversion into mainstream non-dualism requires awakening to an entirely different POV and comes from within, not from without, and from my perspective, from grace rather than egoic effort.”

    Are you also an advocate of the “Adi Da does not Teach Non-dualism” “school”? No one has really posted anything convincing so far, in my opinion, in support of various critics’ claims. Also, what is the grace process you are referring to?

    Non-dualism is beyond all points-of-view – that is why Adi Da is the perfect manifestation of Non-Dualism, and can lawfully admonish devotees to turn to Him. As He says:

    “I am the egoless Absolute Person of Reality Itself – Coincident with this time, and Consequential forever.

    I Am the Divine Self-Domain – the Perfect Sphere of Conscious Light.

    The egoless Conscious Light of Reality Itself Is My Only State.

    There Is a Way – and Reality Itself Is “It”.

    Reality Itself Is the Way – and I Am “It”.”

    (From The Aletheon)

    What could be more Non-dual than that?

  130. SavagePilgrim

    wow!!…impressed by so many long time devotees chiming in…I was 2 y/o when the man started his teaching mission, and came to his teachings many, many years later…after having sifted through dozens, if not hundreds, of Christian mystic, Buddhist, Dzogchen and nondual texts…I consider Da to be a terminal point…he pretty much sums it up…It’s true he draws big time from Kashmir Shaivism, Vedantic monism,etc…but I’ll be damned if he doesn’t hit the mail on the head…His teaching is all encompassing…he may have been a right bastard in real life, and at the same time the most loving expansive being ever…don’t know, wasn’t there…but in my opinion no other so called nondual teacher comes close to the clarity and comprehensiveness of Da…A deep bow to the Master, wherever he is…

  131. Feel4God

    That was a lot of interesting responses to read just now – a very wide range too.

    I want to respond to you, Conradg, but it is late here and some business seems to be unhandled with my “neighbor” – Stevie in Wonderland.

    Stevie, I think you have blown my comment to you way out of proportion. I was criticizing your ironic criticism of Adi Da – specifically, your calling Him disrespectful names like some angry kid might. That is the crux of what I said to you and others who did this. And I did offer you a bit of positive criticism about how to get your actual message across more effectively by avoiding those kinds of adolescent-anger-based jabs of a greatly loved One – especially at the time of His Passing.

    And, oh yes, I tried to make a humorous request about using some paragraph markers – as it makes reading the really long posts much much easier, and more inviting. Really, I was not attacking your grammar, just your method of criticism.

    However, I do understand that “it takes two to tango”, so my apologies for any lack of communication on my part that may have resulted in your misunderstanding my intentions.

  132. blisscake

    Dearest Shiva it is just painful that a friend and brother would abuse one who has given me so much…the one who opened me to be a lover and a father who broke my heart open making it possable to cry and be love again…just by His meer presence The One who came to me in dreams and guided me to adulthood The One who has shown me the way beyond fear and seperation….and the one who through me has loved and hugged you…. not your style i thought no being has ever loved like Adi Da humble is not love.. love pervades beyond all.. it breaks hearts and you have people in your life that love you who are testiment to that.. so your judgement is personal but painful.
    love Blisscake

  133. Michael

    Many people are only reacting to Adi Da Samraj. To react to Adi Da is not to know Him.
    Penicillin is a life-saver, unless you have a bad reaction to it. The lives that have been affected and “saved” by Adi Da (mine being one of them) will always be shrugged off by those who have had, or are having, a bad reaction to Him because they can’t make use of Him.
    A good example of duality in action: “How can you like Adi Da? / How can you NOT like Adi Da?” Those who are devotees will always only express praise and love. Those who are anti-Adi Da, who have had, or are having, the bad reaction, will always express their bite.
    Arjuna had a bad reaction when Krishna showed his many-armed form. This did not negate Krishna’s Divinity. And why would Krishna show Arjuna his many-armed form anyway? Perhaps he was busting Arjuna’s balls. I imagine Krishna could do that. The problem belonged to Arjuna, who had to endure this bad reaction.

  134. shiva

    i believe it has been made very evident that adi da’s criticism of ramana maharshi was based on (politically or narcissistically motivated) misunderstandings. they are artificial arguments to artificially set adi da apart in his 7th stage illusions. nothing needs to be added.

    also, Free4God, your quotes sound good but they just don’t hold up because adi da acted quite the opposite in his daily dealings and wheelings. i am very aware that his words in the last year or so have become more non-dual, but his actions remained the same. same old narcissist.

    i think the biggest measure is what has been actually REALIZED by his devotees. the answer is simple: diddly-squat! rien! absolutely nothing! a fleeting few experiences here and there. whatever comes and goes is not the Real and has therefore no substance.

    does nobody of you still-devotees ask why that was? i asked myself that question constantly while i was still his devotee and i talked with many of my fellow-devotees about this. i never heard a convincing answer. adi da himself admitted the fact that nobody (not even his most intimate and most long-time devotees) had realized anything. and that after being up to 30 years (!) in the company of the allegedly greatest realizer to ever have walked and ever will walk the earth??

    take as a contrast, REAL non-duality teachers like ramana maharshi, nisargadatta, sailor bob adamson. to my knowledge there was not a huge flow of realizers (and that cannot be expected) but there was a constant trickle of realizers coming from all of them. i am most familiar with the nisargadatta and sailor bob “lineage” (they wouldn’t use that word) and i know most of them (except nisargadatta himself) personally. sailor bob adamson realized some 30 years ago in nisargadattas company and was active as a teacher since then. i know of at least 3 people who have since realized in sailor bobs company (“officially” recognized by sailor bob). that is a REAL teaching with real effects.

    nothing of the kind has happened with adi da (who is active roughly the same amount of time as sailor bob). NONE of adi da’s devotees have realized ANYTHING. fleeting experiences – as we all know – don’t mean anything.

    forget your fleeting blisses for a moment and ask yourselves: HOW COME? how can the “greatest realizer” be so stunningly ineffective??

  135. Former Follower and Critic

    Feel4God,

    I think Conradg has done an excellent job of explaining why Ramana Maharshi often used references to going within, and that Adi Da was not really free of similar directional frame of references. It may not resonate with you, but it is a good way of putting it. In Ramana Maharshi’s case, it is practical advice to us given from our ordinarly frame of reference of body mind identification, including the immediate energetic field around us that we sense, that the origin of both the egoic I and the Self are intuited to be within. Self enquiry is really more like Self attention or Self abiding, and is about attention on the sense of self juxtaposed against our unconscious subtle background intuition of Self which all beings possess, even if not consciously. It is not verbally questioning “Who am I? (or “whence am I”), with the exact sense in Tamil the way Ramama Maharshi meant it not being quite conveyed in those english terms and with the modern cultural framework. We can’t help but see ourselves as a consciousness inside a body even if we seem to travel to subtle realms, and the intent is to illuminate and expose this fallacy in a way the conscious mind can’t do by mere belief or affirmation. In one way, using the term inward when the intent is to orient to the all pervasive Self intuited from a body mind perspective is not really any more unreasonably internal or bodily oriented that Da’s recommendations to intuit his “Bright” as infinitely above and his teaching that one should surrender to the Thumbs, when he is really claiming it to be all pervasive and only “above” from our limited perspective which again is not something we can just wish away through thought. The difference and to me the more effective approach is that Ramana Maharshi is saying that Self Enquiry, properly done, works directly on the Heart knot and the Nadis and dissolves the identification with the egoic I, and is in resonance with both the Self intuited as within and the Satguru intuited as without, although neither is strictly true. I find that to be consistent with my understanding. You are correct that Ramana Maharshi valued Satsang above all other methods, but Satsang is association with Sat, the Self, conventially seen as within and without respectively but in Reality all pervasive. Thus self-enquiry is not separate from Satsang and is not just some sort of self-help technique. Nor in its true form is it seeking something that is not already the case, it is more a matter of attention leading to Self-recollection.

    Again, Ramana Maharshi’s statements were primarily intended to be practical and contextual because it was his presence that was doing all the work in the background and adopting the practice attuned to their particular state activated that connection more automatically. Failures in self-enquiry are primarily due relying on mental conceptions, some derived from not understanding that the original person who transcribed and published “Who am I” in the question version incorporated some of their own conceptions into the phrasing, and insensitivity to that Presence due to lack of cultivation. Furthermore, as I have said, there is good evidence that more than a half dozen living Realizers gained full realization through association with Ramana which is both evidence that his guidance worked, and evidence from their accounts that his verbal teachings that have commonly come down to us only provided a rough intution to follow on what he meant. You simply can’t using inaccurate and grossly misinterpreted and non-contextual critical statements about Ramana Maharshi and his life, Nisargadatta, etc., as Da was and not be lacking some of the kind of clear eyed ability that only jnanis have to see into the absolute truth of things. Using faint praise which makes sense to his followers who consider him a step above all others doesn’t alter that fact.

    The above is not a comprehensive response but gives the gist of the position. Again, I humbly suggest that, which is natural since Da is your focus, you are probably not that familiar with the subtleties of Ramana Maharshi’s teachings as they are understood today after scholars like David Godman have compiled a more comprehensive comparison of what was said and the context in which it was said, and the truly active and engaged life that Ramana Maharshi led both in this world and in the subtle world as evidenced by personal accounts. Nor do I suspect have you read the accounts of some of those considered to have become jnanis privately (and here I do not refer merely to Papaji and definitely not to those claiming to be in his non-existant lineage), which illuminates some of the more subtle aspects of Ramana’s practice as proven in the case of these jnanis, and advice from his own pre-realization experiences. Understand that those of us who did consider Da as guru for a time but went back and realized Ramana Maharshi offered a better approach was our true Guru and that Adidam presented an inaccurate picture of Sages desire that his teaching be presented accurately as well. Where there is conflict between Da and Ramana Maharshi on a teaching and behavioral level, we may each choose our respective gurus based on present understanding but Ramana’s true teaching deserves to be presented here.

    As for my criticism of Da’s failure to meet with accepted living jnanis, why should they have to invite him? They did not require an invitation to be seen because they all lived public lives, and there is a natural joy and mutual recognition when true jnanis meet. I require no invitation to see such people and I make no claims of advanced spirituality. The quality of Da’s criticism of Ramana Maharshi, and similarly of Nisargadatta, being as suspect as I have described it above, combined with his failure to visit Nisargadatta or Sri Ranjit for example which, since they were recognized jnanis, would have been appropriate for any self-proclaimed World Teacher and Avatar, may have no significance for you, but to many, it says something.

    In answer to your question, honestly, I think that Da’s teaching draws from non-dualism but do not think Da truly is a non-dualist in practice and it bleeds into his teaching. I believe that he has conflated some of his unresolved egoic tendencies with creative understanding of the traditions which means that when he refers to his unique Avataric state, he has also glorified his spiritualized subtle ego. This is not just my assessment by the way, it is an indirect but referential assessment Ammachi has made as well. I believe he recognized no one else agreed with him but failed to see their position clearly, which I think is indicated by problems in his criticism of jnanis. It is fine that you disagree and state the contrary, I am just trying to clarify my position. I must be theoretically critical of Da because that is my understanding, but I understand we would have different views. To me the egoicity you can not see is so apparent a child could see it once I sincerely questioned problematic issues, although it took me time. But if you had asked me before that time, I would have agreed with your basic premise, and it is not my place to prove you wrong, only to point out alternative perspectives. It has been a long time since there has been any such relatively calm and measured communications on the internet between current Da devotees and those who left and chose another approach, which is strange since there was obviously some commonality. We just need to state our respective POVs honestly to clarify understanding and leave it at that, hoping we inspire others to take up spiritual practice learn something from each other. May your practice and that of those still involved who some of us knew be what ever you need at this point. In that we can agree.

  136. shiva

    NC Says:
    So Shiva, what’s your excuse for being unenlightened? :-)

    who says i am, dear? ;-)

    i have asked this and similar questions to sailor bob adamson many times. and he always gives me 2 pointers in return:
    1. there is no such thing as enlightenment and nobody to become enlightened.
    2. there are too many concepts in the way here of seeing this universal truth.

    this might be difficult to understand for a da-ist (and i don’t mean that in any way condescending!). sailor bob and many other real non-duality teachers undermine the illusion of an “i” whenever they can. i find that VERY helpful, because whenever i actually look for one, it cannot be found!

    teachers like adi da of course need the illusion of an “i” for their scheme to work.
    “i” need to become enlightened.
    “i” need to purify.
    “i” need to adhere to all kinds of disciplines.
    “i” need to surrender and worship adi da.
    “i” need to advance in stages.
    and on and on.

    what does all of that do? for one thing it re-inforces and maintains the “i”-illusion, thus re-inforcing the search for freedom from the “i”. this kind of teaching achieves exactly the opposite of what it tries to accomplish.

    in my 15 years with adi da, i have accumulated so much garbage and utterly false concepts, it seemingly takes time to get rid of them.
    of course, all of what i just said are just more concepts, including the concept and illusion of time.

    sailor bob expresses that much better. because he lives it 24/7. you can actually visit him 3 times a week, or call him on the phone. yes, he makes himself available to ANYBODY. he freely shares his realization.
    he doesn’t feel the need to proclaim himself a world-teacher and then go and hide on a remote island in the middle of nowhere, where only a hand-full are allowed to visit.

  137. Bill

    Adi Da was the perfect manifestation of an American Realizer for our age. A perfect expression of the American archetype: brilliant, creative, a dedicated communicator, and deeply loving; yet materialistic, hedonistic, self-obsessed and sexually obsessed. He percolated out of the best and the worst of all of us, and I love him deeply.

  138. RandyH

    Wow, it’s been great reading all these posts! Wes, how the heck are you man? I have to tell you, when people say that Adi Da never produced any “results” I think “but what about Wes?”. Seriously, you, Glen Johannes and a handful of others are the ones I have the most respect for. For one thing, you stay out of the politics – nuff said!

    I wish I knew who shiva and blisscake are – is shiva brown (as in humble) perhaps?

  139. atiasrama

    What an amazing thread….with current members and former members and others not only sharing their own info and perspective, but apparently touching base with each other after some years….I don’t think this has ever happened on the internet except to some degree at the old Ken Wilber forum.

    Interesting that Conradg is talking about Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta. I called my friend Cyril a couple of days after Adi Da died (Cyril was on his way back home, hanging at the Las Vegas airport) to see how he was doing with everything happening and I started talking about Adi Da’s ties with the Kashmir Shaivistic tradition. All this was in the context of talking about how perhaps there might be now a creative period of people fashioning their own unique forms of practice. (Which are free of what someone here called “clutter”….like all that Mythology.)

    Oh…hope blisscake keeps up the dispatches. Neat hearing directly what’s going on there.

  140. NC

    Yay Bill! Well said.

    Shiva, I always felt that Samaraj Adi Da’s lack of attention to “me” was to my advantage. I always felt there was a tenderness to his not working with me in a more direct way that you describe. I recieved notes, that were always direct, and sometimes they blew me away, but never because of a lack of sensitivity on his part, but because of my own lack of sensitivity. I was a very neurotic fearful woman when I came into the community. I think he could have dealt with me a lot more harshly, but I think he always saw how fragile I was as a character. He was extremely sensitive to that. I guess hindsight is always 20/20. I wish I could have appreciated that more throughout these past years.
    In truth he didn’t care about “me” he cared about nurturing true understanding.
    When I look at Darshan videos all I can see is beauty. Why should I care about anything else. If enlightenment means never appreciating that, and dismissing Him as someone I love, then perhaps the enlightenment you describe is not for me.

  141. shiva

    @ RandyH:
    no, i am not the guy known as humble brown.
    i think he’s still a devotee, but i’m not sure.

  142. Feel4God

    shiva Says:
    “i think the biggest measure is what has been actually REALIZED by his devotees. the answer is simple: diddly-squat! rien! absolutely nothing! a fleeting few experiences here and there. whatever comes and goes is not the Real and has therefore no substance.”

    As I mentioned several posts ago, my very first sighting and sitting in the Company of Bhagavan Adi Da, He opened the heart on the right side and flooded me with a Love-Bliss that I inherently knew to be the Absolute Truth – and that He Is That One. That core understanding of Who He Is has never left me, has Guided my life for 35+ years now. I had many glimmers of that intuition in my practice of Sri Ramana Maharshi’s teachings beforehand, but nothing like this!

    Many devotees can attest to a whole range of experiences of the 4th, 5th, and 6th Stages of life. However, Adi Da was never interested in any of us settling into such experiences, as you must know – and that is the great lesson of the Garbage and The Goddess period.

    Has Adi Da been effective in Transmitting His 7th Stage Realization to devotees? In the sense that That is what He Is and always Grants us, then yes! That is available moment to moment to all devotees from the beginning, and in fact must be the case for this practice to be true. In the sense of absolute abiding in Him altogether free of ALL egoic encumbrances, then no, as far as I know – though I am reluctant to speak for the more advanced practitioners of Adidam.

    However, He has grown in many of us a great discrimination – we now know what Realization is not!

    A brief leela – about 10 years after the Garbage and the Goddess period, I spontaneously started having very strong openings in the right side of the heart again. I knew enough about my own tendency toward such phenomena (and also Adidam cultural politics) to pay it no mind nor to even tell anyone about it. However, this continued in meditation for quite some time. I had not seen Bhagavan for a few years as He was in Fiji, and as I just mentioned, I never told anyone (not even my wife) that this was going on. One night I get a call from a devotee who told me that I had gotten some Notes directly from Bhagavan. They read something like this:

    Adi Da: “Tell , that the energy he is feeling on the right side of the heart is just energy, and to meditate on Me!”

    Needless to say my meditation became much more about surrendering everything once again to Him!

    Great discrimination is a tremendous Gift, shiva – and one that will save countless lifetimes of “reinventing” the wheel of the Great Path of Return. Bhagavan would never settle on a community of “just” 6th Stage practitioners. Of course, it would be far better if by now more than just a few practitioners were in those advanced stages, but that is not the fault of our Master, but our own reluctance to completely drop the egg of egoity in ALL of its forms. That is what He requires as you well know, from the beginning, as He is a Realizer beyond ALL forms of egoity, regardless of their origin. Most of us, and certainly myself, are very ordinary practitioners who have been Gifted mightily! Everyday my Guru grants me the Gift of Himself – tacitly and beyond all form.

    shiva, I also looked at ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson’s picture – he certainly feels like a jnani to me. I also found his and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s quotes inspiring. Thank you for mentioning them here.

    Even though the critics here seem to have no problem highly criticizing my Master, I am very reluctant to say anything critical at all about their Masters. However, given we are now having a very open discussion with some semblance of sanity to it ;), I will say this: I still sense what Bhagavan Adi Da has criticized about the 6th Stage of Life in ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson’s pictures. There is still a very subtle kind of concentration I feel in him. It is similar to what I sense in Ramana Maharshi’s pictures though much more obvious in ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson’s pictures.

    Again, in looking at pictures of Adi Da, I feel no such specific concentration or egoic focus whatsover – just pure Love/Acausal Reality. I really don’t believe that I am projecting something here onto ‘Sailor’ Bob Adamson’s picture – though that will be likely what my observation is said to be by some of you.

    It is also interesting to me that most jnani’s speak in terms of “I Am That” – whereas Bhagavan Adi Da also confesses the same, in absolutely no uncertain terms by even using the “Me” reference. I imagine this is partly what offends people and from there they shout “Narcissus!” However, in absolute non-duality, such a confession would be true of the Only One Who Is, and such a One is obviously Free to Speak that way – even to offend our tradition-based sensibilities!

    From the Aletheon:

    All is dead.
    All is gone.
    Real God does not protect.
    Real God Is the One Who Stands Firm,
    Merely As the Witness-Consciousness,
    As Free.
    That Is Me,
    As I am.

    Real God is not on your side.
    Real God Is Always Only As you,
    in Always Perfect “Place”
    to Wash your black of separation’s mind,
    such that your Stand Is Firm
    As Witness-Only,
    with every “difference” rendered white
    in Prior’s Conscious Light.

    And now on to Conradg’s post… oh yeah, and some work! ;)

  143. slyder1953

    Conradg; No…not a poet from Boston. Carpenter/Builder. That particular retreat was firey/fun. Perhaps you recall sitting and talking on the Sanctuary after the “moment” had changed (and it always did). It was the end of our retreat and I could see the unraveling in you as sure as it was in me. Begining of the end. “Served” well.

    WOW!!! Some amazing comments since I last ventured in here!

    Shiva and Bill: Right On!

    Within the cosmology that Frank set up is the constant attention to ego…recognizing it…mens/womans groups to discuss it…trancending it…resisting it…blah blah blah. “You become what you give your attention to”. The ego is a “concept”. It ain’t real even as an activity…it’s a concept/belief. A belief is merely a thought that you keep telling yourself. The “cosmology” that Frank set up is the very “pond” that he said he trancended or looked up from. Concepts only. Babble. And so he adorned his “pond” and all came to worship at it and worship the creator of it. How delicious…how wonderful…how additcting. How completely unneccesary.

    “But I’ll tell you right now–it is all garbage! Everything the Guru gives you is garbage, and he expects you to throw it away, but you meditate on it. All of these precious experiences, all this philosophy. (Leaning toward the microphone, in a confidential tone) Bruce, would you mind throwing that away? Bruce just had a kriya. All of these experiences are just more of that same stuff, but you’ve read so much bullshit spirituality and religion and all that, so you think all of these things are the Divine itself. None of them is the Divine. They are garbage”. Bubba Free John (Would “Love-Bliss” fall into this category)?

    He could have stopped right there. Should have. All of the talk about ego and 7 stages and the only by me given, are “grease spots”. He didn’t recognize the garbage and stopped throwing it out. Well…it was “His” garbage…7th stage stuff don’t you know. High Dharma (what is high dharma anyway?) . Concepts.

    Ramana Maharshi’ “instruction” is so much simpler than has been made of it. It is direct and elegant;

    “There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep
    seeking reality though in fact we are reality. We
    think that there is something hiding reality and that
    this must be destroyed before reality is gained.
    How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh
    at all your past efforts. That which will be the day
    you laugh is also here and now”. Ramana Maharshi

    How about Sailor Bob;

    “What’s wrong with right now unless you think about it”.

    “Give up all ideas about yourself and simply be”. Nisargadtta

    THIS is “Non-Duality”…even though that is a concept itself…hahaha!!! No “cosmologies…no “worship”…no handing over your last nickle so that the “guru” can self-indulge. No…Gratis…Open…Direct…Elegant in it’s simplicity. “But wait…that can’t be right…it’s all too simple”. Yup…it is!

    “When the student is ready the teacher disappears”.

    So Adi Da is standing at the pearly gates and Saint Peter walks up to him with a huge smile and hands him a shovel. “What the hell is this” Da says indignantly. Well Frank, first, welcome back. The shovel however will be part of your service while you’re here. You can start by cleaning up the mess in the stables that your Dawn Horse made”.

    Via Con Dios

  144. Conradg

    Lots of great responses out there. Former Follower and Critic, I’m quite impressed with your analysis of Ramana’s teachings. I couldn’t have said it better myself. It really is an eye-opener to directly study teachings such as Ramana’s and his mature or enlightened devotees without automatically resorting to the standard Adidam interpretation. I hope that many current and former students can learn to do that, and see for themselves that the Adidam view on the traditions is not the pure and complete message it purports to be. Like some here, I was once utterly enamoured of his teachings, and thought he really did hit the nail on the head. Now I can see he only hit it at an angle, and bent the nail. Not bad really, close, but no cigar.

    This is the problem with so many of us westerners. We approach these traditions as know-it-alls and think we understand them better than the traditions understand themselves. Adi Da just suffered from the usual western hubris. The same could be said of a great many western neo-Advaitins. The cure is a humble recognition that we often don’t know what we are talking about, and our grand pronouncements carry very little weight. This is why Adi Da’s grandiose criticisms of these traditions doesn’t penetrate very far, except in the minds of similarly hubristic westerners, of which I would have to count myself guilty. It takes some serious study to correct this error. I’ve done that to a degree in relation to some of these traditions, like Ramana and Advaita, and I know other former devotees who have done so in relation to other traditions, like Buddhism or Vedanta. It’s really eye-opening to take that step, but it requires relinquishing the certain knowledge of “how things are” that is actively cultivated in Adidam through such conceptual vehicles as the seven stages model. It requires the approach of “ignorance”, of not knowing the answers, which Da himself once advocated briefly back in the Divine Ignorance days, but later made even that into a conceptual trap that betrayed its own principles.

    I couldn’t help noticing Michael’s response, which unfortunately is too typical of Adidam advocates. The notion that critics of Adi Da are simply “reacting”, like some people react to penicillin, presumes first that Adi Da is a benign medicine, and that the reaction is inappropriate. But what if Da is like poison ivy, and our reaction is merely a warning system in the body that tells us to avoid a toxic substance? The problem with the penicillin model is that it presumes that for most people, Da has been positive and good, whereas only a very small number have reacted negatively. The opposite is actually the case. Only a very, very small number of people who have joined Adidam have reacted in an ongoing positive manner, whereas at least 95% have left, reacting to one degree or another negatively. It’s not as if there is nothing positive about Adi Da. There certainly is, or none of us would have joined in the first place. But over time so many of us have seen a negative and destructive side to him, and to his religion, that we have left and voiced criticisms. I don’t think those criticisms negate what was positive, but neither do the positive elements of Adidam negate the criticisms, which I think is what Michael is trying to do. It takes a certain bravery, such as Wes displays, to admit that there is real truth behind those criticisms, and yet to affirm one’s relationship to Da anyway. That’s the kind of devotion I can respect. This is no different than loving anyone in life. I know all of my wife’s faults and problems, and I love her anyway, in spite of all that. I don’t have to pretend that she is above criticism, or perfect and unique, to love her. In fact, seeing her faults and vulnerabilities helps me love her even more. The same could be true of Da’s devotees, if they allowed themselves to be so vulnerable. It’s a shame so many of them think that would be a betrayal of Da, rather than a far more real form of devotion to him.

    And Shiva, thanks for the discussion of Sailor Bob. I’ve read a few things here and there from him, and thought quite well of it, including his descriptions of self-enquiry. I’ll have to check him out.

  145. Conradg

    A few other things:

    Former Follower and Critic, the only objection I had to your post was the criticism of Da for not meeting with other teachers. From what I know, most realizers don’t feel any need to spend time seeing other realizers, and they don’t go around seeking others out to affirm their realization. So it’s not really fair to criticize Da for not doing that (although it is fair to criticize him for seeking out Muktananda’s affirmation of his realization, and rejecting Muktananda’s criticism of him).

    I recall a meeting David Godman described between Papaji and Nisargadatta. Apparently it only occurred because some of Papaji’s devotees tricked him into going to one of Nisargadattas satsangs. When Nisargadatta entered the room and sat down, he looked at Papaji and just asked “what are you doing here?” as if it made no sense at all for him to bother coming. I don’t think there was much of an exchange, but afterwards they both had very positive things to say about one another, and Papaji used to recommend that people read Nisargadatta’s “I Am That” book.

    Papaji did, however, intentionally go attend J. Krishnamurti’s talks in Switzerland in the summer of 1974. He said he felt that Krishnamurti was a good teacher, and that he was probably even enlightened, but that he completely lacked the ability to yogically awaken people. So Papaji felt moved to attend that summer to help people in that regard, because Krishnamurti couldn’t do that for some reason. Funny thing is, that was the summer I travelled to Switzerland as a 16 year old spiritual seeker to attend J. Krishnamurti’s talks, and I vividly remember this extremely impressive looking bald India fellow dressed in traditional Indian gard who I kept wondering what he was doing there. The first time I saw him close up, I thought to myself “Now that’s what it looks like to be a real man”. I almost went up to him to ask him who he was, but he didn’t seem to want people to approach him, so I held back. Too bad, perhaps. Later that day, however, I had an extraordinary spiritual experience, which came out of the blue, but is quite typical of many people who encountered Papaji during his travels. It wasn’t until a few years ago while reading the biography of Papaji that I realized he was the same guy I had seen at Krishnamurti’s talks back in 1974.

    The point, I guess, is that some people may have realized the Self, but be unable to transmit that wisdom. Others may be able to transmit experiences of it, like Papaji, but be unable to bring others to realization. Before he died, Krishnamurti despaired of his own inability to awaken anyone, as did Papaji himself.

    So Adi Da is not alone in being unable to awaken others, or even seriously mature them. It’s quite rare to find a realizer who can also fully awaken others, like Ramana. I’m not saying Da was truly awakened himself, but if I’m feeling generous I can at least admit that he might have been, while not being the greatest vehicle for bringing about the awakening of others. I recall something Maharishi Mahesh Yogi said about Da, when someone asked him if Da was enlightened. Maharishi said, “Unfortunately, yes”. Now, I’m not so sure Maharishi was himself very much of an enlightened jnani, and his opinion may not carry much weight, but I think the sentiment is a fair one. In some respects, one can certainly say that Da was enlightened, even if not full and effectively so, and even if his general effect on other people was a very mixed bad. He certainly was not empowered to awaken others, but it doesn’t seem that all enlightened beings have that power given to them by the Self, even if he often loudly claimed it was so. He exhibited all kinds of nutty and crazy faults, but even those things are not in themselves reason to totally discount his teachings or spiritual transmission. Nor are they reason to imagine he was so great and unique teacher and transmitter of spiritual awakening. He certainly served me in all those respects, but it that doesn’t mean he’s the be-all and end-all of the spiritual process, for me or anyone else. It would certainly appear that he’s not the final step for anyone, and that he simply lacks the ability to actually enlighten others.That doesn’t mean he’s of no value at all. In many respects, even his faults are of value to us, as grand examples of what not to do.

  146. NC

    Conradq, I really appreciate what you have written, but I have a question for you because I don’t understand what people mean when they say, “positive” and “negative”.
    What do you mean by those terms?
    It seems that applying them to one quality or another will always be subjective to me. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I don’t use those terms, but I always feel suspicious of myself when I do.

  147. Stuart

    Shiva wrote:
    > non-duality teachers undermine the illusion of an “i”
    > whenever they can. i find that VERY helpful, because
    > whenever i actually look for one, it cannot be found!

    A monk asked Zen Master Mang Gong, “What is Buddha?”

    Mang Gong replied, “Right in front of you.”

    The monk asked, “Why can’t I see it?”

    Mang Gong said, “If you make ‘I,’ then you can’t see it.”

    The monk asked, “Can YOU see it?”

    Mang Gong said, “If you make ‘I,’ then you can’t see it. If you make ‘you,’ then you REALLY can’t see it.”

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

    http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/booboo.htm

  148. Michael

    Hi Conradg, thank you for your feedback. And your point is well taken. I’m sure I sound hard-headed… simple character flaw. It is such a “point of view” thing. When we present our points of view, we risk something. I understand there are critics of Adi Da. But I believe there are too many critics who, if Adi Da walked on water, would say “Look, Adi Da can’t swim!” I also understand that the spiritual path is a bizarre and maddening one. I understand that I don’t really know squat that amounts to the Truth, even though I can be defensive. I’m not convinced anyone else knows squat that amounts to the Truth, either, and can also be defensive.
    In this world, it seems to me that, for some, the only avatar worthy of being believed in, is one who fulfills their own personal list of requirements. I’m not saying this sarcastically, I hope you see. The only option, then, is that each individual follows his/her own path, but then you have the “my God/ your God” stuff, you still have differing groups of followers, and on-going fragmentation that leads to conflict, war… This is how it has always been, right? Now, I don’t see war escalating between devotees and non-devotees, but there are some people (and I’m just generalizing, please) who are carrying a great deal of anger, and that is just not a healthy thing, period.

  149. shiva

    yes, sailor bob adamson and also john wheeler (a (ex-) student of sailor bob) are highly recommended.

    1. they speak with absolute and unwavering clarity of non-duality.

    2. no guru-games whatsoever. for them there is no teacher and nobody to be taught.

    3. both share their realization freely. you can visit them, you can call them on the phone, john also answers emails (bob does not). they are completely and humanly approachable.

    i have spent a lot of time with them, especially with sailor bob. there is no censorship (as used to be with adi da in his talks in the last years; all questions had to be screened and were censored before adi da could be bothered). you can ask any question. and they only answer from a radical non-dual “pov”.
    sailor bob usually starts his meetings by saying “i am only talking to the I Am that I Am”.

    i have gained more insight into reality in 4 months in melbourne than i have in 15 years in adidam. incomparably more!

    http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/

    http://www.thenaturalstate.org/

  150. NC

    It’s funny how this blog has become both an irritant and a healer in the process of feeling my grief. I feel the limits in everything I post. I appreciate the intelligence and the consideration each and ALL the posters have brought to this forum.
    Reading these posts, and feeling the limits in my understanding have made me want to take my spiritual practice more seriously. I realize how I have gotten lazy about it. The only thing I’ve managed to open up in the past couple of years is Pema Chodren and the 12 step and 12 traditions books…but even those I haven’t been consistent enough about.

    Anyway, it’s a new day. I’ve opened up Pema Chodren, and started listening to the Bright Revelation series.

  151. Feel4God

    shiva Says:
    “2. no guru-games whatsoever. for them there is no teacher and nobody to be taught.”

    Again, this talking school approach is very well-received by Westerners – and was greatly popularized by J. Krishnamurti many years ago. It may bring about lots of insights, even relatively profound mental states, but without actual Transmission Satsang, how can the conditional self realize Absolute Acausal Reality?

    So there are no formal Satsang-Transmission sittings with Sailor Bob?

    Adidam has had some people leave, saying they were enlightened – and they even declared themselves to be spiritual teachers. Sounded like talking school to me at the time. When I saw them later, they sure didn’t look like they realized much more than some mentalized stasis by always assuming I Am That.

    The illusory ego is a wily one! It takes the Sat-Guru to undo him!

  152. shiva

    seriously, Feel4God, you gotta relax your adidam constrains.

    there is no talking school going on around sailor bob. make a trip to melbourne and see for yourself!

    bob only speaks from his living experience. even you may be able to see that when you meet him and if and when you are able to get your superficial assessments from his pictures (no less!!!) out of your system.

    formal satsang transmissions? sailor bob would never call them that. for him, he is no different than anybody else. seriously. i know for a da-ist this is a difficult one to comprehend. all that “happened” for him was the seeing through of the “i” illusion and the recognition of one-ness. one without a second. there is no sailor bob. there never was one.
    that is all he talks about. one – without a second. there is nothing formal about it. how could there be?
    there is nothing to attain. enlightenment? for who??

    he is LIVING that and yes, you could call it a transmission, being in the company of one who has fully realized one-ness and only communicates that. but at the end of the day, those are all just mind-made concepts. one-ness is utterly beyond ALL concepts. and THAT is what sailor bob (and john wheeler and others) communicate – not only verbally.
    and it hits home. clear and square and silent. right home.

  153. Conradg

    Michael, I like that bit about how critics of Da can be too harsh. Quite a chuckle over “see, he can’t swim!” I can certainly relate. I also like what you say about how we chose Gurus that correspond to our preferences/needs, etc. I think this is quite true. It’s certainly true that Adi Da corresponded to my owh preferences and needs, and when those changed, I no longer felt he worked for me.

    The best thing I’ve ever heard about this sort of thing comes from Papaji. In the last years of his life, lots of westerners began coming to him, often complaining about some exploitive or misleading Guru they had before him (lots of them former Rajneeshis). He told them unequivocably, “There are no false Gurus, there are only false devotees”. His meaning was very clear, that what ruins and falsifies the spiritual process is not the Guru, no matter how limited that Guru might be, but the devotee’s own false intentions and approach. In essence, he laid everything in the hands of the devotee. If they were true and right, their spiritual progress would be guaranteed, regardless of whatever Guru they were with. This message of Papaji’s has struck me very hard, and seems irrefutable. My time in Adidam certainly backs it up, not just in my case, but in the case of everyone I ever knew there. Some people who approached the process seriously got real wisdom and growth, and those who didn’t, just didn’t. The way to judge that wouldn’t probably be the same as it is judged within Adidam, in fact it might actually be close to the opposite of how it’s seen in Adidam, but the principle remains true nonetheless.

    Another great thing Papaji used to say when people talked about false Guru is, “This is the Kali Yuga. Everyone gets the Guru they deserve.” That also hits home. For better and worse, I certainly deserved Da, and have to deal with that karma as my own responsibility, as do we all. None of us have any excuses.

  154. soulsurfer

    He talked the talk, but did not walk the walk.
    but he was brilliant and i loved him.
    I know you Wes ,your the real deal, Shiva, I agree with you.
    soulsurfer

  155. slyder

    Feel4God says

    “Again, this talking school approach is very well-received by Westerners – and was greatly popularized by J. Krishnamurti many years ago. It may bring about lots of insights, even relatively profound mental states, but without actual Transmission Satsang, how can the conditional self realize Absolute Acausal Reality”?

    Implicate in this reply is that this is a “talking school” as described by Adi Da. Is it true? No. This is merely a daist device to discredit by using Daist catechisms as a benchmark against which all else is measured. It is false in it’s conception. By the linking of J. Krishnamurti, as some-one that Adi Da criticized, the two are made one and discredited. As some-one who HAS sat with both Adi Da and Sailor Bob it is obvious that there is the living of a relization in Sailor Bob that is absent in Adi Da. The assumption that “Transmission Satsang” is absent in this man and present in Adi Da is false. There are none, in all of the years of being in Darshan with Adi Da, that have realized the “fabled” “Absolute Acausal Reality”. None. It too is a Concept.

    The Sat-Guru is no-one. Quite clearly Adi Da was “Some-one”. The “illusory Ego”??? Well yeah…it is.

    What do I know. Still haven’t figured out how my hand does what it does after contemplating all these years. And who the hell is making these legs work? Can some-one help me with that? And btw…where does the wind go? These are the things that are keeping me up at night!

  156. Feel4God

    shiva, I actually seriously asked you if Sailor Bob offered Transmission Darshan. I did not mean to imply that he was just a talking school advocate. I already mentioned that he seems like a jnani to me from his picture.

    It sounds like he is your Guru and what I am asking is do you feel him transmit his realization to you? Again, I did not mean to imply that he or any other true realizer is simply doing the usual talking school so many people do these days.

    J. Krishnamurti, though he spoke of not needing the guru, actually had one for a while, and also acted as one for many many people for a very long time. But most Westerners don’t like the idea of having a spiritual teacher – so it was easier to give the people what they want! A guru telling you you don’t need a guru! Even most of the critics of Adi Da here seem to be following some other teacher.

    So to just always be assuming that there is no “I” and no “Guru” is fine for the Guru to do – but to the aspirant, he is submitted to that Master for real – even to just assume what the Master is saying is true. If the aspirant does the assuming that no Guru is necessary – well that is just talking school on his part. Why would he even be seeing an adept in that case?

    I hope that clarifies what I meant.

  157. atiasrama

    This discussion about Krishnamurti and Adi Da brings back some memories about those two guys! The spring of 75.
    First I see Krishnamurti give some talks (in SF). Then, a couple of weeks later, go on a little visit for a few days t o Bubba Free John’s Lake county sanctuary.

    He wrote an essay one night after dinner, following a conversation this other visitor and I had with Saniel Bonder. He suggested (to us superficial examiners, which is what I saw he had written out on the copy Bonder was holding) that K was a proponent and practitioner of “mind” dharma. In effect, a limited or incomplete practice. What I think touched off that characterization was when Willie and I suggested to Bonder that perhaps Bubba’s “conscious process” was akin to K’s “Choiceless Awareness” process.

  158. shiva

    slyder said:
    “As some-one who HAS sat with both Adi Da and Sailor Bob it is obvious that there is the living of a relization in Sailor Bob that is absent in Adi Da.”
    i completely second that.

    when – after wasting time in adidam for oh so long – i met sailor bob, this unassuming, gentle and approachable man, who only speaks wisdom when he opens his mouth, i knew i had finally met the “real deal”.

    is he my master?
    no. a master for who? transmitting what? to whom? this is all dualism. more search. more concepts. more nonsense.

    have “i” fully understood? no. and “i” never will. but seeing is “starting” to happen… and for that “i” am grateful.

  159. Conradg

    NC asked:

    “Conradq, I really appreciate what you have written, but I have a question for you because I don’t understand what people mean when they say, “positive” and “negative”.
    What do you mean by those terms?”

    I try to use it in rather loose generic terms that could fit most people’s sense of positive and negative. I like to think of it in terms of a broad notion of “health”, not just physical, but mental, emotion, psychic, spiritual, etc. Some things, which we would call positive, promote and nurture our health, and some things, which we would call negative, harm and cause our health to deteriorate. Nothing is wholy positive or negative, the conditional world is always a combination of opposites, but we can certainly speak of various effects in this terms. For example, we can say that cigarettes are positive in the sense that they promote pleasure, sharpness of mind, and general feelings of euphoria. They are negative in the sense that they cause all kinds of diseases, such as cancer, heart disease, emphysema, shortness of breath, fatigue, etc. One has to make one’s own calculations as to whether the positives are worth the negatives, and it isn’t always clear cut.

    With someone like Adi Da, there are so many calculations involved that you can’t just do it objectively, you have to feel it with your total being. Those who are attracted to and end up staying with Da, as I did for so many years, have to make that calculation with their feeling being, and keep making it, honestly and forthrightly. Eventually, in my case I began to see the negatives outweighing the positives, until I simply couldn’t rationalize my involvement anymore, kind of the way a long-term smoker eventually might realize that they have to quit smoking, even though the pleasure of the act is still strong and very addictive. I realized that if I wanted to recover my spiritual health, I had to leave Adidam. There’s a lot of factors involved, but that’s it in a nutshell. I didn’t see any short or long term benefits from staying anymore, either for me or for Adidam itself. I just didn’t fit in anymore. Eventually, this become undeniable, and I realized at some point that I wasn’t really a part of Adidam anymore. It’s like Zorba the Greek looking down at his cigarette one day, and just throwing it away, and not smoking again.

  160. Michael Ortega

    Much has been made about whether or not Adi Da Samraj was a “Great Realizer” or not. The plethora of exceptional responses here are indicative of his greatness both positive and negative. He was like great nature herself, both beautiful and terrible. Like many great artists he was a difficult man. He was narcissus and he wasn’t. The ocean is beautiful and deep and full of creatures and it can drown you. So what if he was terrifically flawed, he was also a great awakener. Some people say he failed–that he failed to awaken others, that nobody got enlightened. 99% of the time even the greatest are not going to Enlighten you, because Truth comes from inside through sincere effort and passion–bhakti, or whatever. Inside, Inside–that’s where it resides. The guru points the way, but it’s up to us to wake up and get the point. Da did that, period. If others never woke up, that’s their problem, not his. Did he sabotage other’s efforts to actually get on with it and do that, yea, yeah, he did that. Did he fully empower others to be as Happy as possible, yeah, he did that too. We never want our parents to die when we are little kids, but they do and we’re left to grow up and walk on and be the parents for others, or whatever we are supposed to be. He who awakens you does not always Enlighten you. From then on it’s you and your heart and your conscience. You can sail to glory, or be a bozo. Ramana didn’t Enlighten people. He told you to go within and ask your SELF. Over and over, he said that. Those stories about Gurus Enlightening others with a glance, or a touch– that was because the disciple was the Real Deal. the disciple did the work. The disciple followed the finger and looked beyond at the moon, or the radiant sun in splendor. pick your image, it will take you there.
    “Only you can prevent forest fires!”
    I never met you in the flesh Adi Da Samraj. Were you an Avatar? I don’t know, but I know you invoked that spirit with your incantatory language of Love-Bliss. You touched me, I felt you. I had a mystical experience just below where you lived at Tunitas beach, before I ever heard of you. I saw Buddha and Jesus in the sky waving at me. I bowed and said thank you. I say thank you to you now. Thank you Franklin Jones, Bubba Free John, Da Free John, Da Love Ananda, Da Kalki, Da Avabhasa.
    Jai Jai Avatar Adi Da Samraj The Bright!! Ki Jai!!

  161. blisscake

    Dear Friends and Lovers of The Bright One

    still boats come in daily bringing anyone who wants to come and pay their respects and honour the Life of the Great Avatar.. The access is totally open so all who are moved come… His presence is so strong.

    I had the pleasure yesterday of sitting with people and filming them as we chatted about their process in coming here.. many tears and incredable stories.. i will post some on you tube and our new public forum realityrevelation.com. when i get time..

    I woke up this morning angry.. and disturbed.. my mind racing with the upset of some of the post on here.. like vampires banging the nails in to the coffin on the Bright One.. The true lover who was free enought to offend everyone because the truth poured from His being and who can argue with pure love when you feel it.

    I knew i was just processing my own fears and anger at loosing The Beloved the one who had Love me more then any father could. I went to the Hall but there were to many shoes outside and I needed to be alone.. i went to the beach.. my mind racing with venomous responses.. sitting there my hands flat on the sand to feel the island, slowly the familiar feeling of His presence came, my being relaxed and at last I breathed in His perfect thick blissful love deep into my body.. the sea became his form glittering with a trillion specs of perfect light, the wind soft and warm like a gentle caress from the Breath of bliss Itself. then my mind was writing this letter to the true hearts of all.. with not a venomous tone in sight..
    and who can argue with that ! all are one.. all want to be loved, all at heart our love.. and who can argue with that..

    So dear friends and lovers of the bright one and even those dear beloved hearts who have at times declaired there love for him but for now defend there deeper oneness with the One who bought us once and for all the way to the Brightness.

    I went to get breakfast and met a brother on the road.. i shared my beach conversion and he reminded me.. there was no other to argue with.. we laughed..

    he started to recite a poem from crazy Da must sing…

    here is the end line

    “…I am the wave of light
    within your mind
    that happens
    to be everything,
    my love.”

    http://www.adidaupclose.org/Adidam_In_Perpetuity/todoathingforman.html

    So dear friends If you are reading these posts and actually do feel the heart presence of DA when you see His form.. then i would suggest you follow your heart and not get caught up in the mind of so many of these posts.. the reason why there are more negative then possative posts is because when you have found the sanctuary of His perfection through simply feeling His bodily form, why would you want to do battles with fear and mind.. it is a hell that is why sanctuaries are called sanctuaties.. feeling Adi Da is not an escape from feeling and emotion He awakens you to greater feeling and emotion He unfolds you into reality as IT IS , not escapes up and out or into a mind technique, so if it is time for you to step out of the baying crowds.. then please come to the sanctuary of realityrevelation.com or my youtube sites realityway and adidam videos.. and you can freely explore and contemplate with out your own demons being amplified by seeming others issues.. we have enough of our own creepies already and His form is The only way to the Brighness…He gives this gift to everyone.. no qualifications necessery ! if you understand me then you know who you are

    and now I have to drop down again into the depth of His perfection to process the deep loss and perfect unloss through His unending grace.

    with more love then i could self generate Blisscake

  162. NotQuandra

    Dear NC. Yes, it was a hard school, wasn’t it. He was hard. I found it hard to accept that because it flew in the face of what I felt when I meditated with him. The sublimity of his transmission. The felt sense of being loved so deeply, purely, and utterly without limitation. Bliss is not hard, so why must he be.

    I’m struck by something you said. “I allowed that because I was a very undeveloped ego.” A moment of insight. So it was with me. I allowed all the things I saw and was involved in because I was so undeveloped that I either didn’t realize what I was seeing, or was simply unable to accept it. I felt comfortable in my blindered state. I wanted to believe his mythology. I needed it. I see it now as sort of a holding pattern in which I could more or less safely engage life within a structured environment until I matured enough to be able to accept life as it is. I am much stronger now, and cannot escape the fact that I didn’t altogether get to this point without his help. Whether or not he intended it to have this effect on me. He would no doubt be very critical of me now.

    I am struck by the differences in so many of our experiences. I have seen some remarkable transformations in people that society all but abandoned. They were crazy, dysfunctional, weird. They became full of light in relation to Adi Da. However we can explain this, it happened. It was real.

    Some claim that he was evil incarnate. Some have been very deeply hurt by him. We all felt his bliss and savored it, yet we all experienced him differently. I find, at this point, that it would be simplistic to deny all but my own point of view. How can I not admit that I also once felt that I had been helped, that he loved me more than anyone else ever had. And yet now I see him as a charlatan and an abuser. He himself admitted to madness. I cannot disagree. But I don’t see his madness the same way he did.

    My point of view is unlikely to change, but I feel that it is important to respect each person for their own beliefs, understandings, and relationship to Adi Da. The whole array is on display at this blog, now after his death. It is likely that the legacy of Adi Da will always be mixed, but there is no reason not to respect one another, regardless of our individual experiences.

  163. shiva

    Feel4God said:
    “So to just always be assuming that there is no “I” and no “Guru” is fine for the Guru to do – but to the aspirant, he is submitted to that Master for real – even to just assume what the Master is saying is true. If the aspirant does the assuming that no Guru is necessary – well that is just talking school on his part. Why would he even be seeing an adept in that case?”

    what if the “guru” does not function as a guru and tells you you need no guru? sends you in a bit of a spin, doesn’t it? ;-)
    it seems you carry a lot of adidam concept baggage with you and are quick to condemn as “talking school”. why is the assumption that no guru is necessary inherently “talking school”? and why is only a transmission guru a true guru.
    transmitting what? to whom? all dualistic concepts…

    most non-dualism teachers do not function as gurus. they don’t even accept the word “teacher”. “teaching what to whom?” they ask. and they certainly don’t function as transmission gurus. adi da has artificially limited those terms to fit his bill only.
    why do i go to sailor bob then, you may ask.
    because “i” need the reminders, “i” need his pointers to remind me of the universal non-dual truth. and in so doing clarity increases. i was not exaggerating when i said that in 4 months with sailor bob i gained more insight into reality than in 15 years with adi da and his allegedly “divine transmission”.
    whatever sailor bob does or does not do (if anything), it works!

  164. NC

    blisscake, thank you for all your service to Beloved. I genuine appreciate the gift of your sadhana, and thank you for being brave enough to speak ecstatically.

  165. corruptbystander

    From a decidely limited perspective it could be said Frank showed exactly what it would look like to be revered, have every craving gratified, have free and easy dominion over the lives of large numbers of devotees, wallow in unrestrained excess year after year and have fiercely committed volunteers to constantly clean up the mess…
    …and now he has shown us what it looks like when it ends.

  166. Conradg

    I was thinking further about the issue of why Adi Da didn’t produce any realizers, and it appears to me that it’s due to his lack of emphasis on this matter. It’s not as if Da didn’t talk about it from time to time, or complain about the lack of mature practitioners in Adidam, or try to goad people into taking the path seriously, but let’s face it, it wasn’t as if he was single-mindedly focused on that matter. Instead, there were all kinds of fascinating distractions most of the time, projects for people to do, artwork to produce, process, and promote, endless forms of service, and endless concerns about all kinds of ordinary matters.

    Whereas, when you look at someone like Ramana, he just wasn’t interested in anything other than realization, and he seldom talked about anything else. If people came to him with questions, he usually told them to practice self-enquiry, to find out who was bringing these questions to them. Often he just ignored what they asked, if it didn’t seem to directly relate to realization. He was a monomaniac in that regard, always turning every conversation very quickly to the notion of radical realization. This is an important part of what, I would gather, made it possible for so many people to mature and even realize in Ramana’s company. He just wasn’t doing anything else.

    But Da was even critical of this approach. His seven stages model had a negative effect on many people’s desire for realization, in that it led people to think that if they were just “third to fourth stage”, they shouldn’t really be considering or thinking about direct realization, but should just serve, study, and become involved in the usual stream of Adidam “culture”. This made for some fun activities, and some unpleasant activities, but worst of all, it led most people in Adidam to drop any pretense or interest in realization.

    I remember a critical time in the period before I left, where I went to the MOA for a weekend after not having been there in a while, looking for some reason to stay, or at least a sign of what to do. While I was there, the usual meltdown occured, darshan was cancelled, and the community met in emergency mode to try to fix the situation. The usual solutions were offered, such as finding people who could serve full time, fill various slots on the org chart, on and on. I had been staying away from this kind of thing for a while, because I can’t keep my mouth shut, but here I was, and I felt I had to speak up. I suggested that the real problem wasn’t a lack of service, but a lack of interest in realization, and that if we really committed ourselves to that process, and told Da about it, this would be much better received than the usual nonsense. Naive, I know. I can’t tell you the stares I got. The woman at the microphone leading the meeting spoke up and said, “You know, I didn’t come here for realization, and that’s not what I’m even interested in. I came here to serve, and that’s all I really want to do.” I thought this was a rather amazingly honest confession on her part, but I was a little surprised when the whole crowd essentially agreed, and basically shut me down. At first I felt as if I must have taken a wrong turn on Seigler Canyon Road, and wound up at the wrong place. Then I realized this was what I had been looking for, a sign of where this community was really at, what it wanted, and why I simply didn’t belong here anymore.

    I recall Da once criticizing Ramana for how he answered some practical questions from visitors. Some young men came to him and asked him questions about diet, what they should eat, what diet worked best for spiritual practice, and instead of answering, he simply told them to ask who it was who wanted to know these things. No matter how hard they pressed him for an answer, he ignored it, and told them to practice self-enquiry, essentially. Da criticized Ramana for not being practical and addressing this issue of diet, and said that this was why Ramana wasn’t a “complete” teacher, whereas Da was, since he spent years and years talking about diet, writing books about it, etc. He didn’t seem to understand that the effect of putting all that attention on diet meant that attention wasn’t being put on the pressing issue of realization, and that what Da produced was a bunch of people who are very well versed in dietary and health issues, but were not realizing anything spiritually. Whereas Ramana (who did actually make some very basic diet recommendations, essentially an ordinary vegetarian diet), by not focusing on those matters, but instead focusing single-mindedly on the matter of realization, actually did produce realizers, if ones who were not expert gourmet raw food chefs.

    This is the primary lesson of Da, I guess: if you want your devotees to realize, you really do have to focus on that matter of realization day in day out, with virtually no distractions or side trips. You can’t get away with distractions, and you can’t allow your devotees to forget the reason they are there, day by day, minute by minute. It doesn’t take a lot of complex teachings or activities, it just takes a patient persistence in turning people’s attention away from their ordinary concerns, and constantly re-directing their attention to the matter of self-realization. And that’s the lesson for devotees as well. Don’t get involved in all the nonsense some Gurus think is important, and stay single-mindedly focused on the process of direct realization. The testimony of those who do is that the Self reveals Itself to them in all kinds of ways. The testimony of those who don’t is filled with all kinds of delusions and excuses.

  167. no124c41

    Comedy is when you lose your spouse, your friends, your health, your career, your money, and your trust,
    and tragedy is when Adi Da has a malfunction with his umbrella.
    Adolescence is when you dare question the rationale for accepting this.
    Childishness is when you accept that it must be true, and think that it will work out differently for you because you are accepting it in good faith.
    Talking school is when someone actually realizes that there is only God, lives fundamentally beyond comedy and tragedy, and fully supports your true being.
    Talking school can also be found in much of the radical teaching of Franklin, Bubba, and Da.
    Talking school isn’t considered Truth within Adidam.

  168. slyder

    All of this is as amazing to me as…no…I lied…none of it is…I was just being”nice”. It’s quite common (not me being nice).

    “Talking School”. Frank so often pointed out, and used at his discretion, need, or utter convienence, that of the “Straw Man”. Actualy, his chosen “devise”. J. Krishnamurti is a good exmaple of this. As with Jesus, as with Khristamurti, the “context” of their “time” and “culture” get left out of the mix in the criticisms. In the case of Khrishamurti he spoke on the non-neccesity of a Guru during a time and culture where that was heresy. It WAS his realizaton. Needless to say that “Radical View” pissed on the boots of the “Tradition” of his time. That IS the context…not much discussed or given credence to. Criticized by the current “Pharasees”…bet your ass. “There’s good money in the enlightenment buisiness (whatever the hell that is). Don’t come in here and ruin a good thing”. “Doubt everything…Find your own light”. Last words of Guatama Buddha. Find your own light! Any…and I mean any…”teacher”…a man/woman that understands anything…will direct you to That. “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him”. He’s a liar! To back up the argument by Frank is the apparent “lack” of “transmission” in Khristnamurti. Frank has also said that in the enlightenment of his devotees that his own “unique” sihddis may or may not appear in individual cases. They aren’t and never have been the importance. Well… who knows, maybe Khrishnamurti missed the “siddhi” gene. Siddhi/energy…Sun/heat…Water/wet. What other non-usefull concepts can we discuss? Siddhis and a couple of bucks will get you a small coffee at Starbucks (Suggestion…when you get “realized” and go to Starbucks…rely on the couple of bucks in your pocket instead of the Siddhi and you won’t get handcuffed by the nice policeman).

    Jesus…talk about a “Straw Man”…( it is my suggestion that if you are interested, or have a leaning towards this great teacher, check out the works of Dr. Rocco Errico and Dr. George Lamsa)… is yet another example of a great teacher whose teaching is “removed” from the culture and setting of His time and bastardised to current”misconcepts”. Franks misunderstanding of what He said about Jesus is common…he thought he was clever quoting from the Greek ( and none to well ). The “context” of the time and place, Aramaic, “occupied Judea”…put into perspective the “usage” of His words. Check it out…He was non-dual before non-dual was cool! And…totaly rad! He too pissed on the boots of the “Gurus”. Another heretic. Just talking about His realizaton. Walking about. A few guys hanging. No Churches…no proclamations of worshiping my toenails ( the “God” thing came in the 2cd century AD…Frank was too lazy to look that very close…musta got by him). How does this great teacher respond to the recognition of who he is??? ” Man, why do you call me good…Only God is good”. Yeah…no “Graven Image”. No Guru Worship. (BTW…if you realy love Frank you’ll do well to get rid of the current picture on the official site…you may see what you see, but there are going to be a whole lot of people that aren’t bhaktas looking at that photo and there ISN”T anything attractive there. Graven Image comes to mind).

    Point is…the Divine…Truth…I don’t know, give It a name of your chosing… Is Always Now…Kingdom Come…Closer Than The Breath…and there has NEVER been an “Intermediary” to go through. The only “authentic” “Teachers”, if that is a possibility, are as plain as wallpaper, a neighbor, that will talk about the thing that they have seen. And then you’ll share a cup of tea.

    Personaly, I feel there is more “High Dharma”… more compassion…in this video than in all the gosples and sutras. Take a look…who are the bahktas, gurus or light there.

    Kill it all and watch it fall.

  169. Michael

    Conradg, I really do appreciate your words, and I do know you that you are being honest and not just mean-spirited when it comes to Beloved.
    In the end, what really matters? It is all subjective for each of us, isn’t it?
    I love Adi Da, Some others also love Adi Da.
    And then some others do not. So be it.
    I cannot speak for anyone else. Adi Da is like a laser beam, to me. That laser beam clears the way for (what I believe is) the Truth. That laser beam also destroys what is in its path, and if you are attached to what that laser beam destroys then too bad about that, eh? It is what it is… I will be destroyed, no matter what, I’ve got nothing to hang on to, in the end, and perhaps I’m being flamboyant, but I don’t blame Adi Da for this. Adi Da makes me smile, He makes me warm. Something else is more significant? I do not know. Better to be destroyed by smiles and warmth than any form of violence, this is what I bend to.
    If you (and I don’t necessarily mean YOU, personally) have hard, difficult feelings about Adi Da, I am sorry, really (I’ll bet we – devotees – are all sorry that it has turned out this way). I truly believe this is not what Adi Da intended, but I admit I cannot, and do not, speak for Him. I do know that Beloved is also an offense to some. But, I believe that Adi Da was being honest when He asked devotees, “Do you know how much I love you?” This was my experience of Beloved. This is where I put my attention. We become what we meditate on, yes? In my own personal urgency, I do not have time to question what seems obvious to me, but that is me…
    What I really feel is love, and I didn’t realize anything about that until Adi Da came along. Now I feel quite frustrated that I cannot adequately communicate this feeling to the world… which is what “causes” devotees in the first place, I think.
    I do not wish to fight, or argue, or debate, or engage in any sort of conflict regarding Adi Da — not because I want to be RIGHT, but because I prefer Peace & Love over anything else. This is just my nature. Adi Da has fit perfectly with my nature. Everything else is just the practice of patterns, and scales, trying to make beautiful music of it all… This is what I think…
    Much of this conversation has come about because of Beloved’s Mahasamahdi. I love talking about Adi Da (and I have for the past 35 years). I only have praises to sing, and I do grieve that He is no longer Bodily present. However, I hope this does not diminish my ability to communicate with others who are on a different page…

  170. Former Follower and Critic

    Conradg, I find agreement with what you have written. The hubris of westerners who exaggerated collective understanding of the depths of realization while minimizing the problematic aspects associated with western karmic tendencies, and I count myself in that group once, is a real issue. I too found that I got the guru I deserved at the time, in part because westerners tend to be impatient.

    In respect to my criticism of Da for not meeting with various jnanis, your point has validity in general. There is no particular need for jnanis to meet on the physical plane, or avoid each other either, because there is no space or time for the jnani. A jnani recognizes another jnani.

    My reason for being skeptically critical in this case relates to what you have said about his actions when he asked for and was not acknowleged by Muktananda, and a more general pattern Da exhibited in his life of anticipating recognition but then criticizing his teachers and jnanis in general. This is true even of Ramana Maharshi, who he actually praised in the original 1977 Paradox of Instruction as his guru. Up to that time he had said their realizations were equal, that he just had a different function, and he had said that while visiting India in 1973 that Ramana Maharshi had confirmed that in his transmission. One could argue the accuracy of some technical points with how Da described Ramana Maharshi in the 1973 version of Method of the Siddhas, but this would be understandable given the sources he would have had at that time. His 1990s criticism of Ramana Maharshi in the essay though, has so much inaccuracy that it falls right into the same pattern, what I believe was a subtle recognition that his emergent claims and actions were in such conflict with the increasing understanding of Ramana Maharshi that a clear break was needed. This is an interpretation and not statement of fact but the prior pattern clearly suggests it is possible.

    So why then, despite this do I feel it is relevant in this case that he never visited living jnanis? First, I am not dwelling on it, it is one indicator of many in what I see as a larger pattern. Da was a forerunner of the modern type of guru, seen clearly in the many westerners who claim a lineage to gurus like Ramana Maharshi based on minimal contract with anyone remotely recognized as being at that level or even at Muktananda’s level, and in fact with their claims often rejected by those teachers who they then criticize. In the jnani tradition, there are some rare ones like Ramana Maharshi who have no living teacher to acknowlege them, but most like Nisagadatta were acknowledged by living teachers. And even in Ramana Maharshi’s case, he is recognized across many traditions as a Realizer. In Da’s case, he is asserting without any lineage unprecedented claims about his level of realization and unique Avataric function, but this was never acknowledged by either his teachers or later by widely accepted jnanis, who he consigned to a lower stage of realization. The point being that if he were in fact the World Teacher, Divine Emergence Avatar, etc., with a higher level of realization, if anyone would be in a position to use this demonstration to make the “leap” and really support his efforts among ripe aspirants, it would be those who were already jnanis. To use Ramana Maharshi’s , analogy, it would be the difference between trying to ignite gunpowder and dry kindling rather than wet logs. In this case and with this clarification I feel there is some validity. Again, if this was all there was to go on and there were no other factors, I would totally agree with you.

    I do agree with Blisscake that there is a subtle difference between the jnanis he describes and Da. There are those who are drawn to a certain type of active, powerful transmission, which generates enlightening experiences, and find it lacking elsewhere. And there are those who are drawn to the type of more subtle but powerful presence transmission of jnanis like Ramana Maharshi, and who find the other binding and distracting. I simply look at the results in assessing which transmission is more pure and effective, and having experienced both, and based on the track record of the perennial lineage of jnanis, I come to the opposite conclusion of the Da devotees. To be fair, discourse is possible because each of us takes up the practice that appeals to them and gets the guru they deserve, as we would probably agree. All we can hope for here is clear expressions of our respective understandings at this time.

  171. blisscake

    Shiva the deceiver says…

    “i was adi da’s devotee for 15 years and i served him intimately (spending up to 8 hours daily with him) for several years. just as an indicator that i might know what i am talking about.

    adi da was clearly not a realized being.”

    How on earth is this statement at all ‘humble’ you know well that many many other friends of yours have daily experience of His enlightenment.. you also imply that you were in his personal service like in the room with Him..this is bullshit you are directly attacking Adi Da here saying Adi Da is clearly not enlightened as if you… one of the angriest brothers i know could have the incredable unhumbnes to say such a thing.. not something like, in my humble experience i never felt that Adi Da was enlightened but i have many friends and even my intimate who have incredable love and light in there lives through Him. you have finaly brother put Adi Da into the box occupied by all the other things you like to hate…so i guess it was pradictable.. this is not humble it is as I have told you before a perfect reflection of your own inability to allow love… so unless kicking Adi Da, the being that you chose to stay with for 15 years !!! and who you told me you loved.. is part of your new understanding and at the same time completely disregarding your friends own lives and experience… i would ask you to please apologise publicly for making such unhumble and self grandising statement which is directly aimed to put down Adi Da and turn people away from Him even though the ones closest to you have found only pure love and happiness from Him.. or is this why you attack him.
    As you can tell I am having a hard time dropping this one.. which i fully except .. but you man.. i can not believe that you would get the dagger out… not your style brother… you are better then that…
    your anger is painful it hurts others have you not got that yet…

    SO lovers of The Bright one do not get decieved by statements from ones claiming to be ex devotees and critics.. I have once again found that when you actually uncover the charicter you find that the motive is the same… you don’t love me so fuck you… we ALL do this this is why He reflected it and this is the liberation from such horrors that we see here.. the need to attack and put down true love.. true heart openess.. A Great Great Being.. kick Him kill Him I know better i am the big clever man who knows better.. what a horror the ego is in its unlove and fear… mine included.. this is why He smashed it all.. broke all the Taboos.. and Loved in the face of incredable abuse over and over… what did he actually do to you Shiva… he loved you… He just loved you.. that is all, He totally excepted you… what is your repayment… to say it was not enough i wanted more.. like the spoiled child that didnt get it..
    If you do not understand this then no sailor bob will be able to help you.. you are loved brother…. dont you get it…

    Love Blisscake

  172. Stevie in Wonderland

    Many thanks to all the wonderful posts here and genuine, honest, heart-felt expressions from all you lovely people!

    Great that Blisscake realized that it was his own venemous mind that jumped up to defend what he feels are atacks on his Beloved… sheesh….Feel4God even kind of apologized to me and realized that his communication wasn’t exactly loving…maybe a human face of da-votees will finally emerge

    It seems that the Non-duality blog is a good forum for sorting out the various strands of cultism vs. true non-dualism; as well as a kind of Friends Re-dis-united.

    I laughed out long and loud at T.M. Maharshi’s comment on Da…and realized that actually Da did serve as a kind of clearing house…and put people through a hard school…some of us decided to check out other colleges; some of us got expelled for disagreeing with the teachers and the headmaster…and some of us realized that we were never going to graduate with honours and opted to become dharma bums instead. No praise, no blame. If you’re still in school and you’re 55 years old…..well….looks like the school just got burned down.

    I resonate completely with Conradg and this:

    “What ruins and falsifies the spiritual process is not the Guru, no matter how limited that Guru might be, but the devotee’s own false intentions and approach. In essence, he laid everything in the hands of the devotee. If they were true and right, their spiritual progress would be guaranteed, regardless of whatever Guru they were with. This message of Papaji’s has struck me very hard, and seems irrefutable. My time in Adidam certainly backs it up, not just in my case, but in the case of everyone I ever knew there. Some people who approached the process seriously got real wisdom and growth, and those who didn’t, just didn’t. The way to judge that wouldn’t probably be the same as it is judged within Adidam, in fact it might actually be close to the opposite of how it’s seen in Adidam”

    and, also,

    “In my case I began to see the negatives outweighing the positives, until I simply couldn’t rationalize my involvement anymore, ….. I realized that if I wanted to recover my spiritual health, I had to leave Adidam. There’s a lot of factors involved, but that’s it in a nutshell. I didn’t see any short or long term benefits from staying anymore, either for me or for Adidam itself. I just didn’t fit in anymore. Eventually, this become undeniable, and I realized at some point that I wasn’t really a part of Adidam anymore..”

    Thank you Conrad, for verbalizing this; I could have written it myself.

    Da spent time with Rudi….and walked away..he just knew it was time….Da spent time with Muktananda….and walked away….

    Did Rudi’s or Muktananda’s students see that as “treason”..?
    You bet they did (I was one of them!)

    Why should only Da have the courage or insight to walk away?

    But that was the golden web that Da spun…only he could ever “get it”…no other 7th stage etc…not possible..disagree?
    Obviously an adolescent ego! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beat me daddy!

    It’s interesting that if one looks at the sub-text of so many posts here, there is the devotee post, re-using all of Da’s terms of abuse and put-down; “talking school”, “adolescence” etc etc. and, in the majority of cases, ex-devotees referring to listening to their own deep sense of morality, feeling appropriateness of continuing in the community etc. In other words, diving deep and, oh god, yes, stepping out.

    Da did it.

    Oh, yes, but he was unique…etc..

    So is each and everyone of us.

    Did he truly want you to stay wedded to him and the cult for all eternity, endlessly self-censoring and re-hashing his words?

    Step into your own shoes!

    As John Lennon sang, “There ain’t no guru that can see through your eyes!”

    We don’t need to tear down others to follow our truth.

    Like many who write about Sailor Bob; I have found great teachers do not point to themselves or their p.o.v. but rather, point directly to consciousness. How sad, that the opportunity to benefit from being in their company is wasted if they are categorized as “6th stage” “introverted” etc

    We’ll never know his reality, but truly, I, for one can admit to still loving the old rascal and wish the students and ex-students Freedom Happiness and Joy!

    As NotQuandra writes,

    “It is important to respect each person for their own beliefs, understandings, and relationship to Adi Da.”

    Amen!

    There is the possibility to love your guru and accept an alternative p.o.v.

    How’s the paragraph spacing, dude?

    love, Stevie

  173. Feel4God

    Conradg – Of course there are great similarities between Adi Da ‘s and Ramana’s Realizations of the Self. However, Adi Da spoke in great detail about the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi and gives us a practice from the beginning beyond all seeking; whereas Ramana mainly spoke in terms of the Self to be found in the right side of the heart beginning with a practice based on the search to overcome a dilemma. I cannot find passages in the books that I have where Ramana speaks of the all-inclusive (regenerated) manifestation of Amrita Nadi nor completely direct address to the futility of all seeking. If you could post some examples, especially of the former (the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi), that would be very interesting.

    I guess Dharma debates have gone on since ancient days, and this one could go on for an eternity – it already seems like it has. ;)

    Thank you for your post about Papaji’s consideration about the Guru-devotee relationship, Conradg. There is so much that can be said about the absolute need for the Sat-Guru. However, I have most likely already talked too much here. Instead, I will post the following in most loving gratitude for my Beloved Heart Master, Whose Accomplishments are innumerable, Who has served devotees always as needed, Whose Bodily-Human Form I miss greatly and weep for daily, Who Lives with us always, and Who demonstrates perfect egolessness! Look! See for yourself what even I, this very ordinary guy, can see! There is no ego there at any level!

    http://www.adidam.org/

  174. shiva

    @ ConradG:
    from my experience your analysis of why adidam has not produced any realizers is spot on. i don’t think it is the only reason but certainly one of them. the main other reason is that i just don’t see that adi da actually had it in him to awaken anybody. he gave people experiences and produced many bliss-junkies (as is evident in some postings here) but i have not spoken to anyone who has actually gained a deeper understanding into reality. many got insights into their emotional-sexual make-up but how does that help, ultimately?

    ———————

    no124c41 Says:
    “Comedy is when you lose your spouse, your friends, your health, your career, your money, and your trust,
    and tragedy is when Adi Da has a malfunction with his umbrella.
    Adolescence is when you dare question the rationale for accepting this.”
    this is SO SPOT ON! everything around adi da was about not disturbing him. how could a true realizer be disturbed? by what? what i witness in that regard was just utterly ridiculous!

    ———————–

    @ blisscake:
    you say “How on earth is this statement at all ‘humble’ you know well that many many other friends of yours have daily experience of His enlightenment.. you also imply that you were in his personal service like in the room with Him..this is bullshit you are directly attacking Adi Da here”

    how does “humble” come in here? i just stated a fact (my involvement) and an opinion (that adi da was not a realizer).

    and no, none of my friends have daily experiences of enlightenment. they have blisses and other experiences. enlightenment is NOT an experience. it is what is beyond experience.

    i do indeed imply that i was in his personal service for years, directly in the room with him, very often speaking directly with him and considering things with him. and because of this direct exposure i have seen A LOT of what was going on around him. how can you doubt that? if you know who i am (maybe you mistake me for somebody else) then you would know that. how can you say it is bullshit??

    again, for the last time: everything i said in here i have either directly witnessed and is an honest account of my direct experiences in adi da’s direct company, or it is an honest opinion. i was not personally hurt by adi da, i don’t hate him, i often had great fun serving him, and yes, i even once loved him, because i then still believed his claims.
    but i have come to the conclusion that he was a dangerous man because he misled people and he was not a non-duality teacher at all, quite the opposite, really. and that is why i am posting in this non-duality blog. i do not know what his motives were in misleading people. maybe it was not intentional.

    actually, blisscake, you are a good example for being misled. your name already says it. you are a bliss-junkie. no praise, no blame, i am an easily addicted personality myself. but i mostly hear you talking about loves and lights and blisses you (and others) feel and experience. what does that have to do with realization? absolutely nothing! seriously. they are just experiences. they come and they go and because of that they ultimately mean nothing. and you are by no means alone. i have never heard (or at least cannot recall) any adi da devotee speaking about actual insights into reality they have gained. they all talk about love-blisses and temporary experiences.

    that is how adi da misled people. and that is why he cannot possibly be considered a non-duality teacher. he re-inforced the search, instead of leading the way to end it.

  175. NC

    FeelForGod when I see darshan videos, I can’t believe that I turned away. I always felt I was watching this beautiful phenomenon of nature. The pure feeling of every movement in his face is remarkable. There is one darshan clip I’ve seen recently where his face looks like it is matching the subtle movements of a cool breeze. All the wonders and sorrows of the world are fully felt within Him.
    Since his death I have felt him strongly. Having fevers, and trying to conduct myself with some equanimity through a strong reception of His grace. He once criticized me for being idealistic, and for being a romantic. That always served me in my practice of inquiry which I never stopped doing even after I left the community.
    I have not honored him. I know that, but now I will turn to Him the best I can. He is my light in the darkness, and being a bhakti was the ultimate freedom I have ever known.

  176. NC

    People, myself included percieve guru devotion as weakness. When really, it is a discipline of attention, and a freedom from little “I” thinking. When we have been conditioned to not love, it is entirely useful to have someone point the way, so perfectly as Samraj did…and will continue to do even after his passing. He left us all with many Gifts to see that His work continues.
    In truth he will never leave us. He is uncapable of that.

  177. atiasrama

    What shape and direction will Adidam take? Who are the primary people having the most impact on that shape and direction?

    Will Adidam become mainly a fundamentalistic Bhakti cult? Or, evolve into something else (unlikely, or completely unexpected) where the deleterious affects of cultism, missionarism, iconic worship, and rigidified mind forms are addressed, countered, and moved beyond?

    Will there be an emergence of teachers and gurus from Adidam, like the many who branched out from Papaji???
    Could Saniel Bonder be an example of things to come?

    Will Adidam just fade away? (This is the outcome I suspect will happen.)

  178. atiasrama

    Currents of bliss are so tiring, lol. As is the need to always melt away. Good that Shiva is addressing the matter of bliss junkies.

    Just live in the “nothing is happening place”. Out of which there’s the constant rise and fall of thoughts, emotions, sensations. There’s a great workbook for folks, btw, that may take us out of this religion framework for a moment: Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life, Stephen Hayes. (Acceptance and Committment Therapy). Strip away all the frills from Adi Da’s language (and some of his dualistic graftings on thousands of years of basic non-dualistic teachings and practices), and you can discern hopefully the basis for a fruitful practice. Way I look at it though, you gotta get all those darshan pictures out of your minds eye.

  179. Jerry Post author

    Interesting question: what will Adidam become? It won’t fade away completely. It has an opportunity to transform. Turn the island and properties to a retreat and educational center for ALL teachings of nonduality, including Adi Da’s.

    Install leadership that respects and allows all voices. Have no single spiritual head. Only have good organizers who understand what is needed.

    Turn the properties into the nonduality center of the world where people can go, and be, and rejoice.

    Or sell the properties and purchase new properties in more accessible areas of the world.

    That is what leadership could do if they wanted to.

  180. slyder

    Conradg; your posting at 12:26 am points to something that is quite easily missed or dismissed. Focus or attention. In Adidam look at the thing itself. One will be informed by the “manifestation”. That “manifestation” and the heart felt communication of what it “is” is why so many left the “temple”. All of the people that I know who left had similar understandings of the need to go. It wasn’t easy for any of them and the time afterwards was a kind of “free-fall”. All have heard with new ears the commincations of people like Ramana Maharshi, Nisragadatta, etc… and the “contrast” to where they were previously. Leaving the “temple” is a maturity that is not seen or understood from the inside.

    The “attention” that Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Sailor Bob and others “give” or “express” is simple and utterly profound. “Who” is asking these questions? “Where”? Direct…constant…one-pointed to the Clear and Obvious so easily missed or dismissed. They don’t move to the left or the right…no cosmologies…no concepts or constructs. Direct. They merely “point” to the “obvious” always aready the case. That is where “their” “attention” is. “You” are asked to merely see for “yourself”. Inspect the unispected…the “overlooked”.
    It is a simplcity. Truely. The eye stops trying to “see” itself”. The “elegance” is in it’s simplicity and it is both.

    “Realisation is to get rid of the delusion that you have not realised”. Ramana Maharshi

    “You give reality to concepts, while concepts are distortions of reality. Abandon all conceptualisation and stay silent and attentive. Be earnest about it and all will be well with you”. Nisargatta

    “The reflection is not in the mirror but of the mirror”. Sailor Bob

    All of this leads one to “back” to attention. To “you”. All of these men live(d) this realization. What is, and what was seen “around these men, was a “manifestation” of where the “attention” (is) and why “others” did and do “realize” in connection with them. That “manifestation” is in stark contrast to the “manifestation” seen in Adidam. No-one realized. “Where” was the “attention” there. Look at the “thing” itself and you will be “informed” by it.

    To all those who had the balls to leave the “temple” I suggest you honor and have gratitude for that Gift. I don’t know…maybe there are those who Adi Da weaned from the tit and this is what we look like. Perhaps a parting Gift. Who knows?

    Om Sri Youse Guys

  181. atiasrama

    Hi Jerry, based on the language of the news reports from the Fiji Times, where spokespersons described the future use of the island as some sort of retreat, I thought there might be a slim chance of Adidam developing into a much less cultic/bhakti scene. A picture you’ve detailed there. I’m very skeptical of that. The reason for that is because Adi Da established a very solid picture that has been internalized by his followers. In that picture, the very physics behind awakening are forever tied personally to the agency of Adi Da alone.

  182. NC

    If you are referring to “me” Atiasrama, as a bliss junkie, I’m trying that shoe on, and it doesn’t fit. What I’m feeling is nothing like the consolation that the experience “bliss” suggests.
    I’m not really feeling a need to become involved formally again, other than to be of support to the continuation of His work.
    To me, complaint about not getting enlightenment is about searching for something that is already the case. Who am I talking to anyway? Is it conversation that opens me to where “I” stand as the “I” of understanding, or is separative, and more of the delusion that my life has not unfolded perfectly?
    I don’t feel superior to those that have chosen to stay and be of servide to Samraj Adi Da. Nor do I feel riddled with guilt about my departure. I have regret about my lack of understanding, but other than that I feel freedom to make whatever decision I must from the heart. I respect all of your decisions as well, but it’s always good to inquire of ourselves. When we feel like we have arrived the world shifts again, and then where do we stand?

  183. shiva

    will adidam survive? i doubt it, but time will tell.
    there are a few things that would be an enrichment of the human cultural heritage:
    1. the fear-no-more zoos (as far as i’m concerned the highlight of adi da’s heritage).
    2. his art

    ————–

    slyder said:
    “The “attention” that Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Sailor Bob and others “give” or “express” is simple and utterly profound. “Who” is asking these questions? “Where”? Direct…constant…one-pointed to the Clear and Obvious so easily missed or dismissed. They don’t move to the left or the right…no cosmologies…no concepts or constructs. Direct. They merely “point” to the “obvious” always aready the case. That is where “their” “attention” is. “You” are asked to merely see for “yourself”. Inspect the unispected…the “overlooked”.
    It is a simplcity. Truely. The eye stops trying to “see” itself”. The “elegance” is in it’s simplicity and it is both.

    “Realisation is to get rid of the delusion that you have not realised”. Ramana Maharshi”

    that is so true, slyder! this – to me – is true non-duality. always bringing you back to what is always already the case: presence-awareness.
    nothing else. no re-inforcement of the search through disciplines, blisses, guru-games; all those search-re-inforcing distractions adi da was so famous for.

  184. NC

    Atiasrama says:
    “Hi Jerry, based on the language of the news reports from the Fiji Times, where spokespersons described the future use of the island as some sort of retreat, I thought there might be a slim chance of Adidam developing into a much less cultic/bhakti scene. A picture you’have detailed there. I’m very skeptical of that. The reason for that is because Adi Da established a very solid picture that has been internalized by his followers. In that picture, the very physics behind awakening are forever tied personally to the agency of Adi Da alone.”

    Cultic/bhakti” scenes have a place in the world. It’s the theatre of devotion, which people need at certain stages of life. How are we any worse off for it? Especially if these rituals support beauty and moving beyond self limitation, I think there is an absolute need for it.
    How many of us have been to rock concerts? Isn’t that a form of cultic/bhakti?
    Now you tell me which one would feed your spirit more? Don’t get me wrong, I’d go to a Marcus Miller concert in a heartbeat. He illuminates the enjoyment of the physical being in me…but the celebration of the divine is another matter altogether.
    I had an opportunity to go to a fire puja recently, and I found myself completely enjoying it. Even though when I saw the murti being carried to sit on the dais before the fire, I thought, “Well, there is no coming and going anymore” It’s all just divine play. His sanctuaries, and He, himself, were just a way to bring consciousness to that reality.
    I think the mistake that I’ve made, is that I thought his fame, his calling attention to himself, made him somehow glorified, but now I think of it as a great sacrifice.

  185. atiasrama

    Hi N.C. I think we’re all bliss junkies. There’s the obvious one with sex. There’s that hit from chocolate, enlivening the sense of bodily energy overall. There’s things like focusing on the audible sound current on the right side of the head and concurrently focusing visually deep in the center of the head, for some really electrifying travels in bliss lands. And, there’s always a few good tokes on a joint and the subsequent enjoyment of a glowing skeletal/musculature form. All of this is in the realm of bodily (including the subtle “koshas”) energies.

  186. Editor

    I have been asked by the cultnews website to write an obituary for Adi Da. Here is my first draft, feel free to comment by email to: editor at adidaarchives dott org or post here.

    “Franklin Jones, an American guru known by various names including Adi Da Samraj, Da Free John, and Bubba Free John died November 27, 2008 at the age of 69. He passed away suddenly and unexpectedly as a result of a heart attack while at home on his private island in Fiji.

    Documents indicate that disciples in Adi Da’s inner circle expected that he might rise from the dead within three days and “Reanimate His Divine Bodily Human Form.” Adi Da and his followers claim that on several past occasions he has died and then returned to life for the sake of the world and his devotees. Accordingly, shortly after his death senior disciples reminded other devotees that Adi Da was a “Divine Yogi” and “the Greatest of Master Yogis,” and instructed them pray to Adi Da, asking that he return to his body. Alas, he did not do so.

    Devotees also expressed the hope that Adi Da’s body would not show signs of decay, which they believed would be a sign that he was in fact a great yogi, and would also have allowed the body to be displayed for an extended pre-burial vigil. It is apparent that the body must have begun to decay, however, as Adi Da was buried on November 30th, only three days after his death.

    Franklin Jones first emerged as a spiritual teacher in Los Angeles in 1972, after studying with the Indian guru Swami Muktananda and spending time as a member and employee of Scientology. Starting with a very small group of devotees who would meet with him in a bookstore, he eventually built a spiritual community known as Adidam that has properties in Fiji, Hawaii, and elsewhere around the world.

    Educated at Stanford and Columbia, Jones brought formidable intellect and creativity to bear upon the task of westernizing some of the eastern spiritual concepts that young Americans in the early 1970’s were becoming interested in. Over the course of his life, he self-published hundreds of books outlining and revising his spiritual teachings, including his own spiritual autobiography “The Knee of Listening,” which first appeared in 1971. His core teachings incorporate many of the ideas he learned from studying the Kashmir Shaivite and Advaita Vedanta schools of Hinduism, but they also contain his own original insights and opinions about both spirituality and secular culture.

    As Franklin Jones’ career progressed, he adopted a succession of “spiritual” names and eventually proclaimed himself to be the First, Last, and Only perfectly enlightened Spiritual Adept that has ever appeared on Earth or will ever appear in the future. He also indicated that his own spiritual stature and “spiritual realization” was superior to that of Jesus or Buddha. In 1983 he predicted that before he died all of humanity (whom he called “five billion slugs”) would acknowledge him, and said that if he had not come to Earth all of humanity would have been destroyed.

    Adi Da was considered a controversial figure due to lingering accusations that he was having sex with large numbers of devotees, drinking obsessively, abusing drugs, engaging in incidents of violence against women, and financially exploiting his followers. Adi Da claimed that these were forms of spiritual teaching or “crazy wisdom,” designed to reflect devotees’ own tendencies back to them and thereby accelerate their spiritual development.

    In 1985, tensions escalated when a number of ex-devotees requested an audience with Adi Da to air grievances, and he refused to communicate with them. As a result, various lawsuits were filed by and against Adi Da, his organization, and former members. A great deal of international media attention followed. Adi Da himself refused to respond to any of the charges made against him at that time, preferring to withdraw into seclusion in Fiji during the controversy and allow devotees to defend him. He finally emerged to undertake a “yajna” of penance once the media attention faded and the lawsuits had been settled, and then returned to pursue his “teaching work.”

    Although Adi Da described himself as the “World Teacher,” he did not have any significant interactions or communications with anyone outside of his group during the course of his career. His organization has stayed very small, with at most 1000 – 2000 active formal devotees. This despite the publication of more than a hundred books, some of them praised by academics and scholars, and the investment of millions of dollars on “missionary” efforts over a period of more than 35 years. The group has attracted an ongoing stream of new members over the years, but experienced a very high turnover rate that kept it from growing.

    The Adidam organization has not yet made a formal announcement regarding any changes in structure or leadership following the death of its founder.

    Further information on Adi Da is available at http://www.adidaarchives.org (critics’ viewpoint) and http://www.adidam.org (Daists’ viewpoint).

  187. Conradg

    Former Follower and Critic, I’ve really enjoyed all your posts and insights and experience with Adidam, so I don’t want to focus on a minor point. I’m glad you’ve explained your views about Adi Da not meeting with other realizers, and you do have a point that while this is not something that most realizers do, they also don’t usually spend time seeking the recognition of the world, and other spiritual figures, or complaining about their lack of recognition in the world. In fact, I can’t think of a single genuine realizer who has ever sought recognition, or complained about the lack of same, either from other realizers or ordinary people. This was one of the things that in my latter years with Adi Da never really made sense to me, and helped me to see that Da was simply neurotic about many things that shouldn’t have mattered to him.

    You also make a very good point about shaktiblisses. I too was very taken with Da’s Shakti and yogic abilities. He was very impressive. But even though he made criticisms of this in the early years, as time went on he began to focus more and more on yogic phenomena, encouraging devotees to seek by these means for “signs” of their maturity, and we see even on this board examples of people not being able to tell the difference between yogic experiences and genuine spiritual understanding and insight. Not that there’s anything wrong with bliss. I experience a wonderful, loving bliss with every breath I take, I just don’t see any need to focus on that as if it has any greater meaning, or pretend that one can’t function in ordinary ways and use one’s discrimination at the same time. Love is what it is all about in any case, not bliss, and confusing the two is one of the problems Adi Da seemed unable to untangle.

    Blisscake, in that regard, it’s wonderful to see you confessing/purging yourself here about all these things. I really mean that. I don’t want to discourage you. Even your anger is fine with me, and everyone here I think. I don’t think you are being fair to Shiva, he has every right and need to express his feelings about Adi Da here, just as you do, but your anger is probably a good sign. You just need to look at the source of your anger, and I think you will find that it’s not Shiva, it’s someone much closer to you. Anger is not a bad thing, as Adi Da himself would tell you. He was angry a great deal of the time. When I left Adidam, for example, he went on a long, cursing tirade against me that had people a bit taken aback. I was told by people who were there. I don’t say that as criticism against him, I think it’s fine for him to be angry. I was angry at him too. Anger is a good way to get yourself unstuck from the tamas of one’s inertia, and toss out the garbage. So Adi Da threw out my garbage, and I threw out his. It was kind of fun, really. And purifying. Anyway, I just don’t understand why devotees of a Guru who had such a huge temper, who got angry about all kinds of things very easily, could criticize people who get angry at him. You seem pretty angry yourself, which makes you a good representative of him. But should you really be taking it out on someone like Shiva, who has done nothing but speak from his heart here? It isn’t easy for these people to speak out about their time with Da, and let’s not make it harder for them. You could be a little more accepting of people as they are, just as we should be accepting of you as you are. We all share the same problems and conflicts, after all, it’s just laid out in time and space a little differently for each of us.

    And Michael, I really appreciate your dialog, but be aware that from the start of this whole thread I’ve stated my unequivocal love for Adi Da, and my lack of regrets about loving him. I don’t have any hard feelings towards him, and haven’t for years. I’ve even told him so. I loved Adi Da so much for so many years that I couldn’t possibly not love him anymore. I just don’t see any contradiction between loving him and criticizing him, even leaving him. No one is forever, as Adi Da’s death shows. Every appearance is a limitation, even the appearance of realizers and those we love. We end up leaving even those we love, for all kinds of reasons, and they leave us too. We also have valid and meaningful criticisms of those we love that have to be spoken aloud sometimes.

    I wrote before about something Nisargadatta once said, which I think is one of the most profound statements ever, when he was asked by a devotee if there was anything in this world that was real. He said that yes, the love we feel for one another is real, and nothing else. All the appearances here, even the people we love, none of that is real, but the love we have for them is real and eternal and never dies. In some sense, spiritual practice is nothing more than realizing this perfectly, and holding to this eternal love under all circumstances, even death. That is true devotion, true fidelity.

    Now, if you want to only praise Adi Da, that is fine. That’s one way of expressing one’s love. But it’s not the only way. Using discrimination and one’s critical faculties is also a way of expressing love. Even anger can be a way of expressing love. One’s ear has to be attuned to the love within it, true, but it’s there. If our attention goes to the love in one another’s expressions, regardless of what those expressions might outwardly be, this goes a long way towards resolving our differences.

  188. Murli

    da gainsville doobie tosser sends his deep Love and Graditude for The-Life-Lila of Avadhoota Da Love-Ananda.I will always Love You and I will never withdraw from You.

  189. Feel4God

    NC Says:
    “Since his death I have felt him strongly. Having fevers, and trying to conduct myself with some equanimity through a strong reception of His grace.”

    NC, that sounds great even though it sounds like you may be uncomfortable at times. I haven’t needed much sleep – find myself going into the meditation hall for much longer periods each day. His Happiness is Overwhelming! This has been the most common response I have heard from devotees everywhere.

    You and few others here would be very interested in a talk Bhagavan Adi Da gave July 12, 1976 called “The Death and Birth of the God-Man”. It is about what will become of devotees after His Physical Passing (which, in this talk, He equates with His actual Birth). I had prepared some snippets of it to post here because it is so relevant to His Physical Passing and what will become of Adidam – but unfortunately the tone of this blog is too often extremely disrespectful to Bhagavan at this time.

    So NC and others, if you have friends on the Matrix, just ask them if they have this talk – it is prophetic and wonderful! There is no doubt that Adidam will live on in perpetuity! (This talk may even get posted somewhere on one of the Adidam websites, though I do not believe it was ever published.)

    NC Says:
    “People, myself included percieve guru devotion as weakness. When really, it is a discipline of attention, and a freedom from little “I” thinking.”

    Guru devotion is the ultimate form of intelligent discrimination! All other arisings, including attention itself, are simply forms of addiction to the ego (contraction). The Guru is Reality – whereas the ego-I including any form of attention is not. So meditate on Reality directly, personally – not abstractly and mentally.

    Hey guys, how about this idea? I want to submit the following as a new approach to Adidam’s Mission work in the world: ;)

    PICTURE OF ADI DA SAMRAJ HERE

    INSERT PICTURE OF YOURSELF HERE

    WHICH ONE WOULD YOU LIKE TO MEDITATE ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

  190. Perplexed

    PICTURE OF ADI DA SAMRAJ HERE

    INSERT PICTURE OF YOURSELF HERE

    WHICH ONE WOULD YOU LIKE TO MEDITATE ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

    How about Naamleela now that you put it that way?

  191. azyuwish

    I feel as if I have come away pretty unscathed. The Community in Marin, which is the one with which I was affiliated, although sometimes seemingly quite a depressed group of people, never appeared to me to be abusive. That is probably a function of keeping myself no more than a Student Novice.

    Additionally I think I was fortunate in that those I did meet were some very sweet, loving folks. I met people like Gaylin Williams nee West, Max Distenfeld, Jane Molnar, some who last names now escape me but Charles, Carol, Raph…..

    Glad I missed the whole destruction of the bank account, personal relationships and psyche, although I have to say I carried the cultic approach to Teachers around for awhile. Although I saw that Da was flawed I thought that the approach he taught of Ishta Guru Bhakti Yoga was the WAY. I finally got past that as well when I began to read Nisargadatta and Ramana, rather than simply read about them.

    I wish the Daists well at this point, sincerely. I can’t imagine what their hopes are now for the Community. Mine is that they wind down the hype and gain some clarity and Peace.

  192. personalunity

    Namaste:

    This letter hints at a possible bright future for Adidam, and the possible next step in Adidam’s long-term cutting-edge project of helping to bring in the long-anticipated paradisiacal culture composed of huge numbers of true divinities living in unity on Earth.

    Studies of the unconscious intelligence in people leads to a study of dream imaging and other forms of unconscious or subconscious intelligence that most young people today avoid studying. Either schools don’t teach these subjects, or young people avoid the subjects because they are too difficult for many young people to easily assimilate. The special value of these subjects isn’t yet appreciated.

    The ages-old human problem is that there is more brightness in human babies than the ancients were able to access, develop, use, and teach. In other words, modern teachers are not yet wholly developed, inspired, and integrated. They don’t yet clearly understand this brightness.

    Lack of body and brain development is why humanity keeps getting into serious trouble with itself. Present cultures are destined to transform themselves with the help of the cutting edge leading culture of brightness. This brightness is required for the nations to thrive and successfully spread intelligent life to other worlds in space.

    Adidam can grow and become the cutting edge culture leading post-cult oriented humanity into unity and brightness.

    The benefit of this new culture of brightness and unity is that humans can grow to become capable in ways that humans were not cultured to be in any traditional culture. This new growth greatly expands human awareness, capacity, and competence.

    Adi Da appealed to many persons who kept searching for a cult-leader. Adi Da had a strong charm for such people, but in time he repelled many of his once-loyal students. For thousands of years other cult-leaders have similarly charmed their students using powerful body language, voice tone, physical appearance, and other special charms. These strong charms are appeals to human instinct, however. One-ness-integration-wholeness-unity remains a mystery to young inquiring minds. In reality we are all one here on the one world that we know is really alive.

    Humanity needs to advance far beyond human vanity and instinct. Humanity needs to develop more clear and precise conscious intelligence. Children’s strong instinctual feelings need to be integrated with children’s strong intuitions and their strong intelligences in other areas, including the eight basic intelligences defined and promoted by Dr. Howard Gardner in his theory of multiple intelligences.

    Post-cult Adidam can integrate this pedagogical innovation with present-day popular studies and make Adi Da’s cutting edge of brightness both sharper and cleaner. Adidam can open more people up to the creation of paradises on Earth.

    The sense of divinity that Franklin Jones so often called “The Bright” can be studied and practiced by everyone- in theory and in practice- with the help of more and more Adidam teachers as soon as they can explain and demonstrate the unitive sense better both in theory and in practice.

    An individual’s words are easy to reject. The collective dream is not.

    Shalom.

    personalunity

  193. Editor

    Thanks for the e-mail feedback I received, indicating the need for clarification of a key point of contention between certain critics and Daists. Here is a revised paragraph:

    “Adi Da was considered a controversial figure due to persistent accusations that he was having sex with large numbers of devotees, drinking obsessively, abusing drugs, engaging in incidents of violence against women, and financially exploiting his followers. Critics claim these activities were primarily a reflection of Adi Da’s own personal desires, preferences and character flaws, and were generally engaged in without regard for their impact on others. Some claim that their consent to participate with Adi Da was gained through fraud, deception, or cognitive dissonance. Others state that they were harmed or traumatized by his abuses. Adi Da consistently claimed that all of his activities were forms of selfless spiritual teaching or “crazy wisdom,” designed to reflect devotees’ own tendencies back to them and thereby accelerate their spiritual development.”

  194. Pingback: more comments following Da’s passing… « Muddy Practice

  195. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    I find it difficult to believe that you would have a hard time finding any references in Ramana to the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi, when Adi Da himself quoted such passages in the Knee of Listening. I quote here from p. 261 of the 1992 Standard Edition (the nearly unedited version):

    M – Yes, the Heart is the center of the Real. But the ego is impermanent. Like everything else it is supported by the Heart-center. But the character of the ego is alink between spirit and matter; it is a knot (granthi), the knot of radical ignorance in which one is steeped. This granthi is there in the “Hrit”, the Heart. When this knot is cut asunder by proper means you find that this is the Self’s center.

    D – You said there is a passage from this center to Sahasrara.

    M – Yes. It is closed in the man in bondage; in the man in whom the ego-knot, the Hridaya granthi, is cut asunder, a force-current called the Amrita Nadi rises and goes up to the Sahasrara, the crown of the head.

    D – Is this the Sushumna?

    M – No, this is the passage of liberation (Moksha). This is called Atma Nadi, Brahmanadi, or Amritat Nadi. This is the Nadi that is referred to in the Upanishads. When this passage is open, you have no moho, no ignorance. You know the Truth when you talk, think, or do anything.

    Later, on p. 262, Da quotes Ramana again:

    “When the very bright light of that active-consciousness shines in the Amrita Nadi alone, nothing else shines except the Self.

    “In that Light, if anything is seen, even then it does not appear as different from the Self. The Enlightened One knows the Self as vividly as the ignorant one perceives his body.

    “When the Atma alone shines, within and without, and everywhere, as body, etc. shine to the ignorant, one is said to have severed the knot (Granthi Bheda occurs)…

    “As a ball of iron heated to a degree appears as a ball of fire, this body heated in the fire of Self-enquiry becomes as one permeated by the Self.

    “Then for the embodied the old tendencies inherent are destroyed, and then that one feels no body and therefore will not have the idea that he is an active agent (karta).

    “When the Self does not have the sense of active agency, karmas (tendencies, actions, and their results) are destroyed for him. As there is none other except the Self doubts do not sprout for him.

    “Once the knot is cut, one never again gets entangled. In that state lie the highest power and the highest peace.”

    The reason Adi Da originally quoted these passages from Ramana was to confirm that the regenerated Amrita Nadi, which Ramana describes here rising up to the Sahasrar following the opening of the Heart-knot, was in fact the highest realization. It makes no sense to later claim that somehow Ramana didn’t actually realize this regenerated form of Amrita Nadi, but somehow remained confined to this heart-center on the right. How would Ramana describe it unless he had realized it, and why would Da quote him here describing it unless he accepted that it was Ramana’s own experience and realization? The notion that Ramana had failed to realize the regenerated Amrita Nadi is contradicted by Da’s own words and knowledge. Tell me how that makes any sense?

    And look, let’s be honest, the very idea of giving a teaching that is, from the start, beyond all seeking, was taken from Ramana, and Advaita altogether, as were a great many of the concepts and methods one finds in Adi Da’s teachings. These are not original or unique teachings and concepts, these are creative borrowings from Ramana and other traditional teachings. Ramana frequently described self-enquiry as a path that is without seeking, without even action, but is simply the directing of attention to That which we already are. That is why he gave very few practices, and did not engage in the kind of entertaining distractions one finds in Adidam. I would really, sincerely implore you to actually read the Talks and various publications of Ramana’s teachings someday, when your mind is cleared of all these Adidam presumptions, and see for yourself what he actually taught. It may take you by surprise, as it did me and many others here.

  196. NC

    “Hi N.C. I think we’re all bliss junkies. There’s the obvious one with sex. There’s that hit from chocolate, enlivening the sense of bodily energy overall. There’s things like focusing on the audible sound current on the right side of the head and concurrently focusing visually deep in the center of the head, for some really electrifying travels in bliss lands. And, there’s always a few good tokes on a joint and the subsequent enjoyment of a glowing skeletal/musculature form. All of this is in the realm of bodily (including the subtle “koshas”) energies.”

    Okay..okay, atiasrama, you got me…It would have been more accurate if I said I’m a recovering bliss junkie. Listen, I can’t even do marijuana anymore. I just not one of those people that can stop, one toke and all of the sudden the whole world is my oyster….and we all know what kind of aphrodisiacs they are.
    When I referred to the “fevers” that I was having, I don’t think they’re necessarily yogic experiences. They just always seem to happen after I’ve seen the guru, or been on the sanctuary. It seems more to do with learning to conduct the energy that I recieve when I’m there. Samaraj Adi Da’s presence has always had an awakening effect on me. I don’t think it makes me any great yogina, a sensitive little flower perhaps. :-) lol
    By tendency, I’m just an angry wild shakti.

  197. NC

    Muddy Practice, I think I’ll start my own Blog so I can make my own point of view sound more important than yours. I’ll call my blog:” A Blog on a Blog on a Blog”

    A picture within a picture till infinity. Isn’t there a word for those?

  198. soyuz

    I must say, you devotional types certainly make for some good entertainment. Doesn’t seem to be a very effective method for coming round to here though, from what I can see. Understanding is lacking.

  199. RAMIUS

    Devotion to Happiness Itself is The WAY.
    Surrender to Happiness Itself is the practice.

    But all desire to surrender is self-motivated.

    The effort to surrender is fruitless.

    Through devotion to Happiness Itself, one is already surrendered, already in the Divine Sphere of that Self Radiant Happiness.

    That is The Gift I got from Samraj. Attraction is the Means.

    That is my story.

    That is it. Period.

  200. Former Follower and Critic

    Feel4God,

    I was involved during that period but not at the sanctuary and do not recall the particular talk on July 12, 1976 called “The Death and Birth of the God-Man”. As you recall, that was during the early part of a period of extended considerations on presuming enlightenment. My recollection of the period was that Da’s plan then was to leave a community of devotees open to his eternal presence and empowered sites rather than a single successor. If there is value in this talk or others relevant to this passing, I would ask that yout post what you intended. Dharma dialogue does not necessarily indicate too much negativity, and no matter what is said, someone may criticize it, but that doesn’t mean nothing should be said.

    I would like to respond to as well to your comments to Conradg, as follows:

    “Of course there are great similarities between Adi Da ’s and Ramana’s Realizations of the Self. However, Adi Da spoke in great detail about the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi and gives us a practice from the beginning beyond all seeking; whereas Ramana mainly spoke in terms of the Self to be found in the right side of the heart beginning with a practice based on the search to overcome a dilemma. I cannot find passages in the books that I have where Ramana speaks of the all-inclusive (regenerated) manifestation of Amrita Nadi nor completely direct address to the futility of all seeking. If you could post some examples, especially of the former (the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi), that would be very interesting.”

    Apparently in your readings you came to the less than accurace conclusion that Ramana Maharshi taught that there should be a focus on the Self found in the right side of the heart, and that he considered the dilemma real and requiring seeking. But this is not really correct. The main reason why he mentioned the Heart was only because there was in this time a pervasive dogma that Self Realization was tied to an experience of the seat of the Self in the sahasrara, and the ancient teachings about the heart center were being misuderstood. Ramana Maharshi’s point was that for those who identify with a body, the locus of the source of mind and world can be intuited and found at that location in the body, and not in the brain or sahasrara.

    As David Godman says: “…belief that the mind can, by its own activities, reach the Self is the root of most of the misconceptions about the practice of self-enquiry. A classic example of this is the belief that self-enquiry involves concentrating on a particular centre in the body called the Heart-centre. This widely held view results from a misinterpretation of some of Sri Ramana Maharshi’s statements on the Heart, and to understand how this belief has come about it will be necessary to take a closer look at some of his ideas on the subject.

    In describing the origin of the ‘I’-thought he sometimes said that it arose to the brain through a channel which started from a centre in the right hand side of the chest. He called this centre the Heart centre and said that when the ‘I’-thought subsided into the Self it went back into the centre and disappeared. He also said that when the Self is consciously experienced, there is a tangible awareness that this centre is the source of both the mind and the world. However, these statements are not strictly true and Sri Ramana Maharshi sometimes qualified them by saying that they were only schematic representations which were given to those people who persisted in identifying with their bodies. He said that the Heart is not really located in the body and that from the highest standpoint it is equally untrue to say that the ‘I’-thought arises and subsides into this centre on the right of the chest. Because Sri Ramana Maharshi often said ‘Find the place where the “I” arises’ or ‘Find the source of the mind’, many people interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate in this particular centre while doing self-enquiry. Sri Ramana Maharshi rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of the mind or the ‘I’ could only be discovered through attention to the ‘I’-thought and not through concentration on a particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he never associated it with self-enquiry. He also occasionally said that meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart ‘as it is’. The Heart ‘as it is’ is not a location, it is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration.”

    As I said in an earlier post here, in understanding Ramana Maharshi, it is important to realize that he gave practical instruction suited to the situation at hand. In his time, he regularly asked about his position vs the theory that the seat of Self-Realization was in the sahasrara. In fact, as Ramana Maharshi pointed out, everyone intuitively “knows” that the I thought arises from that location from a physical POV. Ramana confirmed the ancient teaching that there there is a “knot” of ignorance felt there that prevents us from realizing the all pervasiveness of the Self. And the Self that he refers to is not found in the Heart center, but merely intuited as being sensed there while in body.

    Ramana Maharshi describes this clearly here:

    ========
    Question: Can I be sure that the ancients meant this centre by the term ‘Heart’?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes that is so. But you should try to have rather than to locate the experience. A man need not find out where his eyes are situated when he wants to see. The Heart is there ever open to you if you care to enter it, ever supporting all your movements even when you are unaware. It is perhaps more proper to say that the Self is the Heart itself than to say that it is in the Heart. Really, the Self is the centre itself. It is everywhere, aware of itself as ‘Heart’, the Self-awareness.

    Question: In that case, how can it be localised in any part of the body? Fixing a place for the Heart would imply setting physiological limitations to that which is beyond space and time.

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: That is right. But the person who puts the question about the position of the Heart considers himself as existing with or in the body. While putting the question now, would you say that your body alone is here but you are speaking from somewhere else? No, you accept your bodily existence. It is from this point of view that any reference to a physical body comes to be made.

    Truly speaking, pure consciousness is indivisible, it is without parts. It has no form and shape, no ‘within’ and ‘without’. There is no ‘right’ or ‘left’ for it. Pure consciousness, which is the Heart, includes all, and nothing is outside or apart from it. That is the ultimate truth.

    From this absolute standpoint, the Heart, Self or consciousness can have no particular place assigned to it in the physical body. What is the reason? The body is itself a mere projection of the mind, and the mind is but a poor reflection of the radiant Heart. How can that, in which everything is contained be itself confined as a tiny part within the physical body which is but an infinitesimal, phenomenal manifestation of the one reality?

    But people do not understand this. They cannot help thinking in terms of the physical body and the world. For instance, you say, ‘I have come to this ashram all the way from my country beyond the Himalayas’. But that is not the truth. Where is ‘coming’ or ‘going’ or any movement whatever, for the one, all-pervading spirit which you really are? You are where you have always been. It is your body that moved or was conveyed from place to place till it reached this ashram. This is the simple truth, but to a person who considers himself a subject living in an objective world, it appears as something altogether visionary!

    It is buy coming down to the level ordinary understanding that a place is assigned to the Heart in the physical body.

    Question: How then shall I understand Sri Bhagavan’s statement that the experience of the heart-centre is at the particular place in the chest?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Once you accept that from the true and absolute standpoint, the Heart as pure consciousness is beyond space and time, it will be easy for you to understand the rest in its correct perspective….

    …Know that though it is said that the Heart exists both inside and outside, in absolute truth it does not exist both inside and outside, because the body, which appears as the base of the differences ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, is an imagination of the thinking mind. Heart, the source, is the beginning, the middle and the end of all. Heart, the supreme space, is never a form. It is the light of truth.

    ===========

    His method of self enquiry was in fact “Satsang” in its true form, attention of the sense of self juxtaposed against the intuition of the ever present source, Self, and by turning attention to the Self, which is also the Satguru, and which through mental contact, purification is intensifed by the eternal presence itself. Regarding the claim about seeking, itt is well known that Ramana Maharshi said that the whole premise of sadhana as seeking was absurd:

    ==========
    “There is no greater mystery than the following: Ourselves beingthe Reality, we seek to gain reality. We think there is something hiding our Reality, and that it must be destroyed before the Reality is gained. That is ridiculous. A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your past efforts. That which will be on the day you laugh is also here and now.”
    =========

    Ramana Maharshi’s teaching on amrita nadi was very straightforward. He said that:

    ========
    “… in the man in whom the ego-knot, the Hridayagranthi, is cut asunder, a force-current called Amrita Nadi rises and goes up to the Sahasrara, the crown of the head….When this passage is open, you have no moha, no ignorance. You know the Truth even when you talk, think or do anything, dealing with men and things.”

    I have read portions of at least one account of an enlightened Ramana Maharshi devotee which can be found on the web describing that exact experience in similar terms. And to be clear, Da was never particularly accurate in his description of Ramana Maharshi or his realization, never met him in body, and was inconsistent in his assessment of him. What Ramana Maharshi teaches is that the result of this awakening to what is always the case is everything, including the world, is directly and non-separately known as nothing but the Unitary Self, without center or circumference. Thus according to Ramana Maharshi, the Heart is everywhere without center or circumference and Amrita Nadi nadi is not separate from the Heart but that consious force and light which shines upward through the sahasrara and illuminates awareness of the conditional realms and thought itself as the Self, etc.
    ========

    As Ramana Maharshi also said:

    =========
    When the effulgent Light of Awareness shines in the Amrita Nadi (Atma Nadi) alone, nothing else shines except the Self.

    Anything that appears before (such a Jnanií ) has no separate existence. He knows the Self, as clearly as the ignorant one knows his body.

    He for whom the Atman (Self) alone shines, within, without and everywhere, as clearly as objects to the ignorant, is called one who has cut the knot.

    This nexus is two-fold : one, the bond of the nadis the other, mental attachment. The perceiver, though subtle, perceives through the bond of the nadis the entire gross world.

    When the Light, withdrawn from all the other nadis, dwells in one nadi alone, the knot (between Awareness and the body) is sundered and the Light abides as the Self.
    ======

    It is true that in the very early Knee of Listening, Da says of his own experience of Amrita Nadi as he calls it:

    “Bliss and energy of consciousness rise out of the Heart and enter the sahasrar, the highest point in consciousness, and stabilize there as a continuous current to the Heart.”

    Da seems to have either seriously misinterpreted or taken statements out of context to support his claims that Ramana Maharshi never experienced or described a regenerated Amrita Nadi. In truth, Da seems to have overemphasized the significance of the locus of energy above instead, which is only above in relation to form anyway and which is merely the reflection of the conscious light but not really “outside” either the Self or the Heart as it Is. Nor does the Heart, which is beyond space and time and without center or circumference in truth, require a post realization continous current to the Heart. The fact that Ramana Maharshi didn’t dwell on Amrita Nadi that much it is that knowledge of it prior to Realization does not do much to aid it, and the ajnani tends to make it a subject of mental imagination and thus of seeking, and because Self-Realization automatically regenerates Amrita Nadi in any case. This lack of emphasis does not that Ramana Maharshi did not experience it. I would hope that you can acknowledge that is a possibility.

  201. Feel4God

    In an attempt to “catch up” with posts through yesterday…

    I have noticed that some people here think that the Love-Bliss Transmission that Daists mention is some kind of kundalini or body-mind-based process. At least speaking for myself, I understand why you might think this, since kundalini shakti phenomena are much more commonly experienced and known about in the traditions. However, having a spiritual relationship to Adi Da Samraj, He Transmits the Love-Bliss that is characteristic of Reality’s State – not conditional kundalini shaktipat (even though these phenomena may be catalyzed in the devotee by His Ruchira Shaktipat, such kundalini phenomena are not themselves His Love-Bliss Transmission).

    I do understand that there is no convincing anyone of the need for the Sat-Guru and His Ruchira Shaktipat. But once the devotee’s heart truly recognizes Reality and receives the Divine Person’s Radiant Transmission, there is instant conviction – at and from the heart! This is not body-mind-based, but the fundamental being is drawn into the Unconditional Love of Reality Itself.

    Stevie – To answer a previous question of yours, yes, I am very happy for anyone who finds their true Sat-Guru. As you must know by now, Guru devotion is of utmost importance to me. (P.S. Your paragraph markers made your post much more readable. Now if we can convince others to break up their posts a bit more…)

    shiva Says:
    “nothing else. no re-inforcement of the search through disciplines…”
    That is one of the main reasons that Westerners love the non-dual teachings. Somehow it is assumed that no disciplines are necessary. No way the body-mind can conduct the spiritual power of Reality without real preparation; and that is also one of the reasons for the right life disciplines of diet, exercise, etc., etc. Otherwise, the depth of understanding tends to be mind-based only.

    shiva says:
    “…why is the assumption that no guru is necessary inherently “talking school”? and why is only a transmission guru a true guru.
    transmitting what? to whom? all dualistic concepts…”

    No amount of mental presumption of non-duality will ever relieve the being of its felt duality – simply because all that presumption is the same duality that is being suffered. It is all mind. No amount of “mind” dharma will ever transcend the root of attention itself – though it may be and feel very lofty in terms of its non-dualistic considerations.

    This is why the Guru is necessary and why true devotion to a God-Realized Master demonstrates real intelligent discrimination. For the ego to think otherwise, but still talk the non-dual talk, is talking school.

    shiva, your teacher, Sailor Bob, is clearly some kind of guru to you. You can do the “non-dual speak” to me to try and answer my questions of you – that is fine; but from your own posts, it sure seems like he works as a teacher to you. The Guru is necessary, and Grace is necessary because only the Divine can free the being from its apparent double-bind.

    However, it is not the Divine separate from the aspirant as you apparently have concluded about the practices as given by Bhagavan Adi Da. Having been a student, you must have understood that His Gift of Realization is given from the very beginning – but apparently you didn’t get this or at least were unable to live consistently in His Company on this basis. Believe me, I know it is very very difficult! It is always upon that basis that the Reality Way of Adidam is practiced.

    All attempts to seek egoically are futile and lead to endless problems – and which may get very exaggerated very quickly the closer to the Master’s egoless fire you are. To not intensely practice when in His immediate Company (including His Empowered Sanctuaries) could cook you real quickly – and not in a pleasant way as you apparently have experienced.

    However, if you are happy with your current teacher, then great! And the very best to you!

    As atiasrama posted, Adi Da mentioned that J. Krishnamurti taught a form of “mind” dharma. Adi Da also mentioned that J. Krishnamurti had suffered an extremely powerful kundalini experience very early on, which locked him into the upper terminal (mind) – and was very dissociated from his lower body after that. (This was about 30 years ago when I heard Adi Da say something about this, so this is not verbatim.) It is also interesting what was posted about Papaji initiating Krishnamurti students due to Krishnamurti’s inability to do so. I wonder if these two conditions are related.

    Perplexed Says:
    “How about Naamleela now that you put it that way?”

    PICTURE OF ADI DA SAMRAJ HERE

    INSERT PICTURE OF YOURSELF HERE

    WHICH ONE WOULD YOU LIKE TO MEDITATE ON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

    Ok, just to be clear, that Adidam Mission “proposal” was an attempt at making a humorous point only. I guess I won’t quit my day job! ;)

    Seriously, only Adi Da’s physical body is gone – not Him. His Murti photos are still points of contact, just like His Empowered Sanctuaries are. And by most devotees’ confessions – He is being received more potently than ever.

    If I missed anyone’s question to me, please repost it if you like – there are too many posts here now to go back through them again.

    On the reverse side, I am not sure Conradg saw this question from me – I probably should have paragraph marked it so that my question stands out more. ;) Also, to Former Follower and Critic and any other student/devotee of Ramana Maharshi, I will post this unanswered question (at least unanswered as of last night) of mine again:

    Of course there are great similarities between Adi Da ’s and Ramana’s Realizations of the Self. However, Adi Da spoke in great detail about the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi and gives us a practice from the beginning beyond all seeking; whereas Ramana mainly spoke in terms of the Self to be found in the right side of the heart beginning with a practice based on the search to overcome a dilemma.

    I cannot find passages in the books that I have where Ramana speaks of the all-inclusive (regenerated) manifestation of Amrita Nadi nor completely direct address to the futility of all seeking. If you could post some examples, especially of the former (the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi), that would be very interesting.

  202. no124c41

    Thanks for all the continuing great posts, and thanks Former Follower and Critic for all the Ramana quotes.
    Here are a couple of typical brief quotes on the 6th and 7th stages, taken from the original Basket of Tolerance:

    “The 6th stage error is the tendency to hold on to the Subjective Position of Consciousness, as if the Realization of Divine Consciousness depends upon strategically excluding Consciousness from its objects and thus cutting off all awareness of objective conditional phenomena”

    “The Enlightened individual in the 7th stage of life has (in the “Perfect” fulfillment, or transcendence, of the 6th stage of life) Realized “Perfect” Devotion, or constant, inherent, uncaused, and unconditional identification with the Self-Radiant and Self-Existing Divine Person and Condition. Through Self-Abiding in the Divine Condition, conditional existence and all its objects are “Recognized” to be merely unnecessary and non-binding modifications of Self-Radiant Consciousness, and in that case, no mattter what arises, no limited self arises.”

    These distinctions have never rung true for me, and to try to place Ramana or Nisargadatta in this alleged 6th stage error doesn’t make sense to me. In fact as I read the Ramana quotes posted above, and I type these Adi Da quotes here today, Ramana shines like the sun, and Adi Da gives me the willies (not so good ones).

    I could rationalize a lot of behavior as crazy wisdom while I was a student with Adi Da, but I couldn’t knowingly accept false teaching. That’s why when Adi Da proclaimed himself the sole occupant of the 7th stage, that was the last straw for me. (And of course, the whole notion of an Enlightened individual is an odd way to conceptualize the 7th stage understanding.)

    Who am I to criticize Beloved’s Teaching? That’s a good question, but no more important than Who am I not to, or just Who am I? I want to understand this 6th/7th stage thing which has been important to me and has never made sense. My presumption now is that it is flawed dharma.

    Dharma is important! I wasn’t there for Ishta Guru Bhakti Yoga. When I first signed on as a student, listening to the point of hearing was the real deal (as in Advaita, which is dishonored when that very real process gets tossed aside as “talking school”).

  203. NC

    This morning I woke up full of doubt, fear and self loathing. I realized that I was once again throwing away the gift of understanding my self. And while the yoga of the mind is a good discipline, without being informed by allowing the heart to remain open, and the body free of necessary agitation it is empty blathering and so I bid you all adieu, to mature in practice, and thank you for your gift of reflection.

  204. Nat Raj

    It’s the Right One, It’s the Bright One, Any When Any Where…It’s Arunachala Ramana Da ..The Radiant Heart of All :)

  205. Nat Raj

    I submit the following addendum: A..Any Who Any What,Any When Any Where…Glorious Golden Bright I AM

  206. atiasrama

    SavagePilgrim asks where are the Lions?

    I think in the past several months, whenever it was Oprah and Eckhart Tolle did their webclass on each chapter of Tolle’s A New Earth (great book!), the Lion population went up quite a bit.

    Now I know that these popularizing, non-guru (and workbook) based mediums are something that many here may find as “talking” school or, even worse, merely commercial exploitation of advaitic teachings. I think, though, Eckhart and Oprah had a profound impact in getting a lot of people to enter that stream. It was great stuff. So, let me suggest that ordinary people are becoming the Lions here.

  207. AKASHA

    The whole culture of Da-ists/ism is obviously self protective and designed to regulate (nulify) critisism, even when justified. Just using the honorific “Beloved” , or “Bright One”,would prevent one from clearly seeing fault when it is obvious. I mean, who would use the term asshole-beloved, dumb shit beloved, downright mean, manipulative and narcissistic beloved. It wouldn’t happen. If you buy the whole “Beloved” thing you are convinced of all the amazing and God-like qualities that comes with the name. You build a structure of mythic proportions to justify your pov. Yes, bliss and love are real effects when steeping yourself in an environment of bliss and love. But, that doesn’t justify a conretized vision of your Guru that is always above reproach. This becomes one’s philosophy and then you seek out the justifications for it.

    When you sit down in front of your guru and feel the bliss of Divine Love (and then neme that guru the “Beloved”) “Beloved = Divine; Your lifes’ prayer has been answered and thus your Beloved is unchallangable, unquestionable. You tend to dismiss anything that challanges the pov of your faith. It is very similar to born-again Christians who put up a wall of scripture to discount any point that challanges their ‘perfect’ belief in Christ as the “one and only begotten Son of God”, period.

    The thing I find most telling is that the devotees of Da who are so protective of their relationship with him, so convinced of him and so wrapped up in their “all about him” thing, are missing the boat of radical non-dualism. The Beloved has become this gigantic OTHER. Divine, Bright, Blissful, Loving, etc. That is not, in any stretch of the imagination, qualified as non-dualism. God is the condition of existence and prior to existence (to quote Da). God is to be realized as the condition of all being(s)…even you, before any objectification or self and other reference points.

    What I am getting, and got years ago, is that Da bathed in his delight at being the “Beloved” Other. It was and is the stated practice to put all your attention on him (who has already transcended the world). So, let’s resolve this issue right now. Da-ism is a bakti cult (non-pejorative). It has been and still is that. There really is no need to make it anything else.

    When I first became involved with the community and Bubba Free-john, it was about “Understanding” and the radical argument. He was the great Bubba the great friend to guide one to the radical realization of that. In time as the names changed from bubba to Da to others and finally Adi Da Samraj, etc. the radical became subordinate to the Ishta Guru Bakti yoga practice.

    So, I get it. He is your Divine Ishta, no argument attached. The chasm comes between those who were under the impression that that it was about the non-dual realization without even the slightest trace of self and other and those whose motivation is all about attention to the Divine Beloved Other. What I have read from other detractors, and also offered by myself, is that, after all the angst settles, he just didn’t measure up to what what I was looking for. That’s all. No more no less. This in no way makes me any less devoted to God. It just means I don’t look for God outside of direct, natural awareness without reference points.

    For those of us who were not there for the “Ishta Guru” it becomes understandable why the “teaching demonstrations” are often seen as abuse and manipulation and not Divine nectar from the Beloved.

  208. Nat Raj

    For Daists and non-believers alike here is a wonderful Gift from the Self to the Self that puts you straight into the Witness State beyond all differences and sectarian strife particularly if you’re having a difficult time getting over your own and other’s reactivity or you still feel yourself to be a victim of what happened in the past:

    TAT (Tapas Acupressure Technique) with free downloadable instructions :www tatlife dot com (the jewel of newly emerging field of Energy Medicine) gently but rapidly & permanently releases reactive emotions trauma limiting beliefs etc.

    Simple easy to learn and effective i have found it to be incredibly helpful with all kinds of issues both mundane and spiritual.

    As an ex-student of BFJAD (Bubba/FrankJones/AdiDa) & Barry Long I found U.G.Krishnamurti to be extremely helpful in breaking away to find my own truth without the unconscious addiction to personality cults of teachers & perceived authority figures of all kinds dating back to my childhood.

    I am very grateful to him for that, he really was the “real deal” and pointed the finger right back at me, truly “kicked my butt” (and everyone else’s whether they realize it or not, including BFJAD) like no-one else & showed me things about myself, life & the universe way beyond what I could have imagined or what any guru or teacher I have EVER encountered has been able to do, so that I could move on and honestly discover by myself who or what i really am without any kind of restrictions whatsoever..imho the true definition of a guru.Together with Sri Ramana he really takes the ticket)..

    The teachings of the American Sage Arnold Patent I also found to be very down-to-earth and helpful, incorporating the highest spiritual teachings, with unconditional acceptance of yourself EXACTLY AS YOU ARE and the WORLD EXACTLY AS IT IS WITHOUT ANY JUDGEMENTS, through the simple act of FEELING and feeling Love for your feelings however “ugly”or “bad” they appear to be at first sight, thereby reclaiming any power you have invested in anything or anyone “outside” yourself … as a result some of BFJAD teachings finally appeared to make sense to me.

    This proved to be my first real introduction to the true meaning and practise of Love in my everyday life , and a necessary bridge to help me to function, live in and make sense of the ordinary world after the years of dissociation & loss I felt after leaving behind BFJAD & the Daist community/cult/organization

    Part of the process of being set free from the past:as some kind of cosmic joke the Universe even hooked me up for a time with a woman who was the spitting image of a younger Frank/Bubba.. isn’t that weird (or a gift.. ;)..)?…she was a borderline sufferer too so i really got my money’s worth thank you..lol

    Releasing beliefs and judgements and using of the Mirror Principle, namely all see (aka the world) is none other than my Self, appreciating myself just as I am, feeling grateful for life & the world just the way it is, were profoundly helpful to me after practising on a daily basis what initially appeared to me to be a flimsy lightweight New Age meditation called the Feeling Exercise (from Arnold Patent).

    It goes like this:

    The Feeling Exercise steps are:

    1. Feel the feeling free of any thoughts you have about it. Feel the energy, the power, in the feeling.

    2. Feel love for the feeling just the way it is. Feel love for the power in the feeling.

    3. Feel love for yourself feeling the feeling and feeling the power in the feeling.

    ..it can be practised in front of a mirror aswell.Kind of pro-active vipassana or variant of the Taoist Inner Smile

    It helped me to regain a connection to myself that I had lost through the cultic adoration of “others” at numerous times in my life, and unleashed a tremendous amount of creative energy that (shakti) had lain dormant for most of my life.

    After a while I saw for myself that this regular practise of feeling, & eventually choosing love in every moment, led me to a “moment of recognition” that bore an uncanny similarity to what i read long ago of BFJAD’s “7th Stage Teachings” (Feeling without Limitation ;)), and I finally got what he was on about, or shall we say, in a way that was meaningful to me personally as a spiritual insight at the time.

    This has formed a part of my “daily spiritual practise” if you can call it that, for many years, and helped me with feeling at home in the world and with everyday issues especially money sexuality and relationships, which are all areas where emotions reign supreme

    …I have been guided all the while on my own unique path, aswell as to the ultimate realization that so many have so eloquently stated here on this blog & elsewhere : that there is “no self at all to realize” (Acausal Divine Reality perhaps ;)) ..what a paradox! for which I am eternally grateful NOW, and so pleased that so many are getting it..a happy “begin-without an-ending” :)

    I wholeheartedly agree with all the well thought criticisms of dissenters, particularly the astute comments of Ramana fans, and yet I cannot deny that BFJAD, aka the Beloved, who apparently re-created himself by channneling the ancient archetype of the Vedic pantheon Brahma Da Prajapati, The “Creator” (with all the attendant perils) had an undeniable influence on me.

    Especially the last years, ironically helping me to recognize and release aspects of my shadow, using the above mentioned practise, which is an ongoing process of spiritual housekeeping, no more and no less ( to this end Arnold Patent’s Feeling Exercise & Energy Medicine like EFT, TAT and ZPoint have comprised my premium mental-spiritual toolkit)

    …aswell as giving me my first glimpse and encounter with the elegantly simple & profound Way of the Heart as revealed through Bhagwan Arunachala the Golden Bright —

    the Ever Present Self Existing Supreme Reality I AM and His consort PachaiAmman (Pacha Mama) Gaia the Earth Mother Who Are Eternally One Present and Gifted In and as the Heart of All Beings..:) For all this I express my gratitude to “seemingly separate” Adi Da, all the while remaining relaxed, firm & true to what I know to be be my own truth as I have experienced it firsthand.

    I’ve also been moved & inspired by the devotion of devotees of Adi Da here on this blog, and I recognize their ecstatic outpourings very well, as they have brought back nostalgic feelings from that time, which is why i just wrote all that devotional stuff just there lol, and i am able to perceive them for what they are without an iota of cynicism thank god.

    As my dear friend Stevie said above ;)

    “Love is the only goddamn god(-S) there is !”

    ..or as I would add: let’s remember we’re all just looking at an elephant folks and quit bickering..

    ..Freedom is FREE, She doesn’t belong to anybody ;)

    In Gratitude

    Love Peace Freedom Laughter & Infinitely Abundant Blessings to All
    (Regardless of your creed affiliation or “level of realization)

    xxx

  209. Feel4God

    Thank you Conradg and Former Follower and Critic, for refreshing me with those quotes – I will definitely save those for further study. I actually was looking in the books I have of Ramana (very old) and could not find them about Amrita Nadi. Of course, I remember Adi Da’s passages in The Knee of Listening of how Ramana’s Realization was the only one that corroborated what Adi Da had Realized at the time – but because I was reading Ramana’s books, I missed those passages of Ramana quoted by Adi Da! Hahahaha! Go figure.

    However, it does seem obvious that Ramana seldom spoke of Amrita Nadi, as Former Follower and Critic also points out. At the level of Being, I cannot assume that there is any difference between Bhagavan Adi Da and Sri Ramana. However, it is very obvious to me that Adi Da’s and Ramana’s emphasis and functions are very different.

    As Adi Da points out in a poignant example in The Knee of Listening (2004, page 453-454), Ramana was speaking to a group of young men, who obviously were not ready for the non-duality practice of Self-enquiry – but Ramana still spoke to them in non-dualistic terms. This is an example of his predilection for only Self-Abiding and not actually addressing them directly about maintaining their health properly, etc. Also, in this edition of The Knee of Listening, Adi Da says on page 455:

    “And, much like (generally) comparable Realizers in the various (specifically, and often, more or less exclusively) sixth stage traditions, Ramana Maharshi was not, in the Fullest (and Truly Yogic) sense, a True Siddha-Guru, Who directly Serves and directly Awakens devotees by direct (and consistently Effective) Spiritual Transmission – but He was a True Jnana-Guru, or One Who Serves and Awakens devotees indirectly, by Silent and thought-free Self-Abidance In and As the Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) Self-Condition (and Source-Condition) That Is Consciousness Itself, but (in contrast to the case of a True Siddha-Guru) not directly, through open, voluntary, even (at least, at times) intentional, and truly consistent Spiritual Effectiveness.”

    “Therefore, Ramana Maharshi simply pointed toward the “fourth state” (beyond waking, dreaming, and sleeping), or the “natural state” (Which Is “like sleep”, but Which Is Only Consciousness Itself). And His fundamental Teaching can be summarized briefly (in His own Words):

    Adi Da quotes the following From Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:

    “The mind is to be introverted and made to merge into the Self; … the practice must be long because [it is] slow and [it] must be continued until it [the mind] is totally merged in the Self. … All that is required of you is not to confound [or identify] yourself with the extrovert mind but to abide as the Self.”

    So it seems entirely plausible to me that Sri Ramana’s emphasis and function were toward the Heart on the right and the Silence therein; and Bhagavan Adi Da’s emphasis necessarily had to be the fully regenerated Amrita Nadi for the sake of utterly completing and transcending the Great Path of Return for all men and women both East and West – and also quite probably for reasons no mere mortals could possibly comprehend.

    Are there other modern realizers who have realized Amrita Nadi – and who have written extensively about it? Do you guys consider Ramana Maharshi your Guru? Have either of you Realized Amrita Nadi? There seems to be too little personal confession about most people’s practice on this thread, in my opinion.

    Please understand that I am first and foremost a devotee of Adi Da eternally and that includes trusting Him as Spiritual Master. He has never told me to do anything that did not serve my practice directly. Did I always understand it at the time? No, but sometimes even years later, I realize how much something He said or did served me.

    I have long had intuitions of the causal heart, as I mentioned earlier, even the circuit of Amrita Nadi, but I also see now that I clearly needed a very concentrated body-mind based practice of disciplines because of a strong tendency toward mind-dharma. (I very much related to Ramana Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti in my teens, to give you some idea.)

    Of course, Adi Da has always admonished us to begin and end each day with extended periods of meditation. But I also know that I have needed all kinds of right life bodily disciplines all these years; and all of this testing and capacity to surrender because the practice is no longer a mind-dharma – it is Reality’s Love-Bliss directly Transmitted by Reality – no doubt about it! It frees me directly and on that basis I can do the disciplines happily.

    So when I read The Knee of Listening (2004) once again, I not only trust what He says but also it really does make sense to me from an overall standpoint.

    There are no absolute ways to prove or disprove what any of us are presenting about these very advanced processes, and really, what does it matter ultimately? If you have a personal, direct Guru-disciple relationship with Ramana Maharshi and He is Initiating you directly and fully – then great! That is the case for me with Bhagavan Adi Da.

    What is most important is that we have True Realizers who Are Reality to Behold! What a blessing to directly recognize and surrender to Acausal Reality not just to our minds and some sense of the Witness!

    Also, I do understand that “no-seeking” has been the basis for non-duality teachings for ever. However, no one has ever explained it so well, nor incorporated it into a vast body of Teaching that includes everything necessary about all levels of spiritual development, like Adi Da Samraj has.

    Almost no one is up to non-dualism as typically laid out here in the West, but Adi Da has completely integrated the Truth of Non-Dualism (No-Seeking) with ALL levels of responsive practice! No one has ever done that in the entire history of religion and spirituality.

    So with regards to “Adidam presumptions” that you are presuming I have, Conradg, would I be asking about all of this here if I were simply locked into some mind-set? And besides, what do I really know about any of this anyway? And unless you have realized this yourself, what do you know about it, really? That is the point of having a Spiritual Master, right?

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “I was involved during that period but not at the sanctuary and do not recall the particular talk on July 12, 1976 called “The Death and Birth of the God-Man”. As you recall, that was during the early part of a period of extended considerations on presuming enlightenment. My recollection of the period was that Da’s plan then was to leave a community of devotees open to his eternal presence and empowered sites rather than a single successor. If there is value in this talk or others relevant to this passing, I would ask that yout post what you intended. Dharma dialogue does not necessarily indicate too much negativity, and no matter what is said, someone may criticize it, but that doesn’t mean nothing should be said.”

    I have no problem with the kind of discussion we are having now – but some people are simply spiteful and disrespectful with little self-understanding. This blog has seen too much of that, in my opinion. Even the person called “Editor” with his obvious agenda from adidaarchives, shows up here because so many dark critics were gathered here. But some of you have been at least respectful in your criticism. Anyway, here is something about that talk:

    Yes, Former Follower and Critic, your memory serves you well – that was basically what Adi Da said back then, and as far as I understand it now, this still holds true for the future of Adidam. He told us that His death would come suddenly, but only when we were spiritually prepared to incarnate as Him – and, for Him that would be His Real Birth. He also looked at all of us and said “Taking that into account, this is obviously not the moment!”

    Hahahahahaha! What a motley crew we were!

    By the way, you have never told me what the process of Grace is to you. :)

  210. Nat Raj from the Summer of Love '66

    I would like to share something from many years ago when I was in a relationship with a beautiful and crazy woman from Chile who was almost the spitting image of Bubba/Franklin. A gift/cosmic joke from the Universe in hindsight.

    I confess I did something I never did before even though I’ve been a musician for over 20 years : I heard a song that actually moved me so much I decided to learn to sing it and accompany myself on guitar, and what’s more it was in Spanish which is not my mother tongue.I consider it to be one of the most beautiful songs ever written though probably few people in the english-speaking world ever heard it

    It is written by Silvio Rodriguez Dominguez, a Cuban singer songwriter and one of the pioneers of the Nueva Trova that arose at the time of the Cuban Revolution and it’s straight from the heart.
    He wrote songs with astoundingly beautiful and surreal lyrics and melodies with intricate classically influenced harmonies which couldn’t help but remind me of someone I once knew ;)

    As I couldn’t find an English translation anywhere of this song which is something of an anthem throughout Latin America I have endeavoured to freely render one of my own, so please forgive me if you notice any errors or it appears clumsy.

    I dedicate this to Adi Da, as to me it seems most appropriate when I think of him (even though it has been dedicated imho erroneously by the author to leaders of an altogether more militant disposition).If there are any spanish speaking devotees perhaps they would like to make a better translation and correct any errors.

    At the bottom is a link where you can listen to the original version performed by Silvio Rodriguez himself (who is a folk hero with a large following “south of the border as they say.

    You can listen to it at the following link:

    POR QUIEN MERECE AMOR

    Te molesta mi amor?
    Mi amor de juventud
    y mi amor es un arte de virtud

    Te molesta mi amor?
    Mi amor sin antifaz
    y mi amor es un arte de paz

    Te molesta mi amor?
    Mi amor de humanidad
    y mi amor es un arte en su edad

    Te molesta mi amor?
    Mi amor de surtidor
    y mi amor es un arte mayor

    Mi amor es mi prenda encantada
    es mi extensa morada
    es mi espacio sin fin
    mi amor, no precisa frontera
    como la primavera
    no prefiere jardin

    Mi amor, no es amor de mercado
    porque un amor sangrado
    no es amor de lucrar
    mi amor es todo cuanto tengo
    si lo niego o lo vendo
    para que respirar ?…

    Te molesta mi amor?…

    Mi amor no es amor de uno solo
    sino alma de todo
    lo que urge sanar
    mi amor es un amor de abajo
    que el devenir me trajo
    para hacerlo empinar

    Mi amor, el mas enamorado
    es el mas olvidado
    en su antiguo dolor
    mi amor abre pecho a la muerte
    y despeña su suerte
    por un tiempo mejor
    mi amor, este amor aguerrido
    es un sol encendido
    por quien merece amor..

    FOR WHOEVER DESERVES LOVE

    Does my Love disturb you?
    My Love of Youth
    And my Love is an Artistry (full) of virtue.

    Does my Love upset you?
    My Love without masks
    And my Love is an Artistry of Peace

    Does my Love perturb you?
    My Love of Humanity
    My Love is an Artistry of it’s Age

    Does my Love disturb you?
    My Love as gushing forth like a jet
    and my Love is a Great Form of Art

    My Love…is my Enchanted Treasure
    It’s my Extended Abode
    It’s my Space without End
    My Love ..no precise border.
    Like Summer, It doesn’t prefer the garden

    My Love, isn’t a love of the marketplace
    Because a Love that bleeds
    Isn’t one to profit from
    My Love is all I have
    If I ignore It or sell It
    Then what am I breathing for?

    Does my Love disturb you?
    My Love is not a Love of one only
    but in the Heart and Soul of each and everybody
    My love is a Love from below
    That which urges Healing
    That which Transformation brings Me
    to make Itself Exalted.

    My Love, the Most in Love
    It is the Most Forgotten & Neglected One
    In It’s Ancient Sorrow.

    My Love opens It’s Heart to Death
    And gushes forth It’s Good Fortune
    For a better Day and Age

    My Love, this battle-weary Love
    It’s a passionately burning Sun
    For Whoever deserves Love

    I have freely capitalized in the Master’s style in order to make it a fitting tribute to Him. May His Blessing extend to All Freely.
    In Love
    I AM

  211. Former Follower and Critic

    No124c41, I can empathize with your reasons for departing Da’s community. I had no issue with the Bhakti approach as Ramana Maharshi described, but not with the manner Ishta Guru Bhakti became modified in Da’s community. This was intensified particularly when I began to see signs of either repetitive distortion or lack of understanding of what those like Ramana Maharshi lived and taught, and an inability for any kind of “consideration” on this subject based on what Ramana Maharshi actually said and did.

    Based on those quotes from Basket of Tolerance, Da teaches:

    “The 6th stage error is the tendency to hold on to the Subjective Position of Consciousness, as if the Realization of Divine Consciousness depends upon strategically excluding Consciousness from its objects and thus cutting off all awareness of objective conditional phenomena”

    “The Enlightened individual in the 7th stage of life has (in the “Perfect” fulfillment, or transcendence, of the 6th stage of life) Realized “Perfect” Devotion, or constant, inherent, uncaused, and unconditional identification with the Self-Radiant and Self-Existing Divine Person and Condition. Through Self-Abiding in the Divine Condition, conditional existence and all its objects are “Recognized” to be merely unnecessary and non-binding modifications of Self-Radiant Consciousness, and in that case, no mattter what arises, no limited self arises.”

    What is interesting about all this is that from 1970-1993, Da made no attempt to publically claim that Ramana Maharshi was a incomplete Realizer of the sixth stage only, and had listed him as an example of complete enlightenment.

    The problem is that the evidence does not support this claim. Da references only one specific example in his criticism of Ramama Maharshi, the one Conradg cites above, about the young men fixated on health and Ramana Maharshi’s instruction to them. Put in the proper context, Ramama Maharshi’s response is perfectly appropriate. There was a long standing tradition in India, related to Raja Yoga, that only after the body had been relatively perfected could the pursuit of enlightenment be engaged, and that is the context in which the question is asked. Ramana Maharshi dealt with these cultural myths a lot, and in this case, properly points out that there is no end to pursuit of physical health in an impermanent body, meaning that a more direct practice is better. He was not saying to ignore the body, and there is no evidence these questioners, interested in the dharma conflict between these two perspectives, needed advice on a money food and sex level because that was implied in the yoga path they were talking about.

    What Ramana Maharshi actually said is nothing like the sixth stage error Da asserts:

    ===========

    Question: If the jnani and the ajnani perceive the world in like manner, where is the difference between them?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Seeing the world, the jnani sees the Self which is the substratum of all that is seen; the ajnani, whether he sees the world or not, is ignorant of his true being, the Self….

    Question: What is the difference between the Baddha and the Mukta, the bound man and the one liberated?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The ordinary man lives in the brain unaware of himself in the Heart. The jnana-siddha (jnani) lives in the Heart. When he moves about and deals with men and things, he knows that what he sees is not separate from the one supreme reality, the Brahman which he realised in the Heart as his own Self, the real.

    Question: What about the ordinary man?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: I have just said that he sees things outside himself. He is separate from the world, from his own deeper truth, from the truth that supports him and what he sees. The man who has realised the supreme truth of his own existence realises that it is the one supreme reality that is there behind him, behind the world. In fact, he is aware of the one, as the real, the Self in all selves, in all things, eternal and immutable, in all that is impermanent and mutable.

    Question: Is there no Dehatma Buddhi (I-am-the-body idea) for the jnani? If, for instance, Sri Bhagavan is bitten by an insect, is there no sensation?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: There is the sensation and there is also the dehatma buddhi. The latter is common to both jnani and ajnani with this difference, that the ajnani thinks only the body is myself, whereas the jnani knows all is of the Self, or all this is Brahman. If there be pain let it be. It is also part of the Self. The Self is Poorna (perfect). After transcending dehatma buddhi one becomes a jnani. In the absence of that idea there cannot be either Kartritva (doership) or Karta (doer). So a jnani has no karma (that is, a jnani performs no actions). That is his experience. Otherwise he is not a jnani. However, the ajnani identifies the jnani with his body, which the jnani does not do.

    Question: You have said that the jnani can be and is active, and deals with men and things. I have no doubt about it now. But you say at the same time that he sees no differences; to him all is one, he is always in the consciousness. If so, how does he deal with differences, with men, with things, which are surely different?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: He sees these differences as but appearances, he sees them as not separate from the true, the real, with which he is one….I have said that equality is the true sign of jnana. The very term equality implies the existence of differences. It is a unity that the jnani perceives in all differences, which I call equality. Equality does not mean ignorance of distinctions. When you have the realisation you can see that these differences are very superficial, that they are not at all substantial or permanent, and what is essential in all these appearances is the one truth, the real. That I call unity. You referred to sound, taste, form, smell, etc. True, the jnani appreciates the distinctions, but he always perceives and experiences the one reality in all of them. That is why he has no preferences. Whether he moves about, or talks, or acts, it is all the one reality in which he acts or moves or talks. He has nothing apart from the one supreme truth.

    Question: They say that the jnani conducts himself with absolute equality towards all?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes.

    “Friendship, kindness, happiness and such other bhavas (attitudes) become natural to them. Affection towards the good, kindness towards the helpless, happiness in doing good deeds, forgiveness towards the wicked, all such things are natural characteristics of the jnani.” (Patanjali, Yoga Sutras, 1:37).

    You ask about jnanis: they are the same in any state or condition, as they know the reality, the truth. In their daily routine of taking food, moving about and all the rest, they, the jnanis, act only for others. Not a single action is done for themselves. I have already told you many times just as there are people whose profession is to mourn for a fee, so also the jnanis do things for the sake of others with detachment, without themselves being affected by them.

    Questioner: There are said to be Sadeha Mukta (liberated while still in the body) and Videha Mukta (liberated at the time of death).

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: There is no liberation, and where are Muktas?

    Question: Do not Hindu sastras speak of mukti (liberation)?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Mukti is synonymous with the Self. Jivan Mukti (liberated while still in the body) and Videha Mukti are all for the ignorant. The jnani is not conscious of Mukti or Bandha (bondage). Bondage, liberation and orders of Mukti are all said for an ajnani in order that ignorance might be shaken off. There is only Mukti and nothing else.

    ========

    The above is just representative and not exhaustive of Ramana Maharshi’s comments. There is no evidence of “the tendency to hold on to the Subjective Position of Consciousness, as if the Realization of Divine Consciousness depends upon strategically excluding Consciousness from its objects and thus cutting off all awareness of objective conditional phenomena.” Since there is nothing except the Unitary Self and the differences are seen as superficial and never opposed to Truth, this “sixth stage” limitation obviously does not apply.

  212. \m

    To current Da devotees: please don’t be offended
    To current Da critics: stop laughing
    To the “dharma debaters”: an irrelevant diversion

    THE SEVEN TANTRA OF DA

    http://mysite.verizon.net/mattbl/tantra.htm

    The true interpretation of the 7-stage model.

    Bona fides: class of ’75-76 (Bubba, Sadhana groups, Divine Communion, ashtray considerations, $6/day lifestyle, apricot kernels, Bill Stratton for Supervisor, naked household parties, etc.)

  213. Nat Raj from the Summer of Love '66

    Let us be aware of the tendency to Spiritual Materialism (beautiful term coined by the “crazy wise” Tibetan lama
    ChögyamTrungpa) or trying to keep up with the Joneses — pun intended ;) …namely we aren’t and never will be as perfect as this or that role model (that goes for ANY and ALL rolemodels not just the “heavyweights” in the spiritual marketplace)

    ..it’s exactly the same follow the leader (while you compare & belittle yourself) dynamic going on everywhere all the time on this planet in every single field of human activity.
    You really are an elitist bunch you advaitins and non-dualists (btw has anyone ever even bothered to check out Ramanuja’s Visishtadvaita — “Oneness of the Organic Unity” or “the world is real and not an illusion” –which at the time resulted in more than one attempt on his life including by his Advaitin teacher during the 11th Century AD.His renegade stance in the face of Shankara Shaivist monism may assist in the Daist standpoint being a little better understood..as they say there’s nothing new under the sun).

    Let’s Lighten up for god’s sake everyone lol.

    So on a Lighter note here is a veritable “Song of the Self” written by Brazilian composer and father of the Bossa Nova Tom Jobim performed in a duet with Elis Regina, one of Brazil’s greatest singers, dedicated to everyone of you out there who has been graced beyond Grace (for me this is bhakti and jnana rolled into one..I mean even Sri Nisargadatta enjoyed singing his bhajjans didn’t he for god’s sake.. ;)..)

    THE WATERS OF MARCH (AGUAS DE MARḈO)

    By Antonio Carlos Jobim

    A stick, a stone, it’s the end of the road
    It’s the rest of a stump, it’s a little alone
    It’s a sliver of glass, it is life, it’s the sun
    It is night, it is death, it’s a trap, it’s a gun
    The oak when it blooms, a fox in the brush
    A knot in the wood, the song of a thrush
    The wood of the wind, a cliff, a fall
    A scratch, a lump, it is nothing at all
    It’s the wind blowing free, it’s the end of the slope
    It’s a beam it’s a void, it’s a hunch, it’s a hope
    And the river bank talks of the waters of March

    It’s the end of the strain
    The joy in your heart

    The foot, the ground, the flesh and the bone
    The beat of the road, a slingshot’s stone
    A fish, a flash, a silvery glow
    A fight, a bet the range of a bow
    The bed of the well, the end of the line
    The dismay in the face, it’s a loss, it’s a find
    A spear, a spike, a point, a nail
    A drip, a drop, the end of the tale
    A truckload of bricks in the soft morning light
    The sound of a shot in the dead of the night
    A mile, a must, a thrust, a bump,
    It’s a girl, it’s a rhyme, it’s a cold, it’s the mumps
    The plan of the house, the body in bed
    And the car that got stuck, it’s the mud, it’s the mud
    A float, a drift, a flight, a wing
    A hawk, a quail, the promise of spring
    And the river bank talks of the waters of March

    It’s the promise of life, it’s the joy in your heart

    A stick, a stone, it’s the end of the road
    It’s the rest of a stump, it’s a little alone
    A snake, a stick, it is John, it is Joe
    It’s a thorn in your hand and a cut in your toe
    A point, a grain, a bee, a bite
    A blink, a buzzard, a sudden stroke of night
    A pin, a needle, a sting a pain
    A snail, a riddle, a wasp, a stain
    A pass in the mountains, a horse and a mule
    In the distance the shelves rode three shadows of blue

    And the river talks of the waters of March
    It’s the promise of life in your heart

    A stick, a stone, the end of the road
    The rest of a stump, a lonesome road
    A sliver of glass, a life, the sun
    A knife, a death, the end of the run

    And the river bank talks of the waters of March
    It’s the end of all strain, it’s the joy in your heart

    And to close (I hope you enjoyed that little gem btw) this:

    “After silence, that which comes closest to expressing the inexpressible is music” Aldous Huxley

  214. Stuart

    Feel for God wrote…
    > It is the talking school advocates of non-duality
    > that tend to think that such preparation and
    > submission to a Guru is unnecessary

    When someone speaks or writes criticism of the “talking school,” they’re “opening their mouth.” That means they’ve entered the talking school. To use words to criticize the talking school… is like promoting vegetarianism while eating a cheeseburger.

    The authentic way to object to the talking school is to stop talking. But it’s only attachment to words that’s a problem — the wanting to get something from words. USING words is fine and good.

    Also: to give meaning to the question of whether a Guru is “necessary,” we’d need to get clear on “necessary for what?” If you want something, then some technique or strategy may be helpful in the effort to get it and hold it for a while. Then there’s the separate issue of inquiring into the “want” itself… is it anything more than a thought appearing and disappearing? If we don’t want anything, then nothing is necessary.

    > because such advocates tend to be more
    > mind-based, even wanting to exclude the
    > body and whole bodily right life disciplines.

    No need to exclude disciplines, but we can examine the mind that wants to get something from a discipline. It’s not a bad mind; it may be helpful at some times. But if we’re inquiring, we can ultimately inquire into this mind that wants to get something.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

  215. Former Follower and Critic

    Feel4God,

    This is a limited response. I will try and respond more later on. Since you asked, grace as I refer to it is like an unseen gentle hand that guides you even when consciously you are unaware of it and often can be seen only in retrospect. I find abundant grace in Ramana Maharshi and confirmation of his living presence, which accomplishes what it will despite my resistance in its own time.

    Da has always put the relevant quotes on the Heart and Amrita Nadi from Ramana Maharshi from the earliest editions of Knee of Listening. I guess I paid closer attention to them because of my interest in Ramana Maharshi. This information was no secret. To give you just one example, I bought a copy of Mountain Path in the former Dawn Horse Bookstore that contained a reference to Amrita Nadi that taken word for word, if you did not take into consideration the differences in how they defined the word enquiry, would have been identical to what Da was saying then. But back then it wasn’t such an issue since nobody was questioning Ramana Maharshi’s realization.

    Let us look precisely at the quotes Da and you are referring to:

    ======

    A group of young men asked: “It is said that a healthy mind can be only in a healthy body. Should we not attempt to keep the body always strong and healthy?”

    M.: In that way there will be no end of attention to the health of the body.

    D.: The present experiences are the result of past Karma. If we know the mistakes committed before we can rectify them.

    M.: If one mistake is rectified there yet remains the whole sanchita which is going to give you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more you prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify your Karma, the more it accumulates. Find the root of Karma and cut it off.

    =====

    As I have said, there is nothing in the context that drives the assumptions you are making, and no evidence that Ramana’s statements in front of the actual young people as a jnani “seeing the truth in all people and things”, is off. The setting is not the more modern scene in America where people just show up casually to see gurus and ask questions. These young men are, as I said, given the cultural setting, fully respectful of Ramana Maharshi and his basic teaching already. They are asking about the widespread dogma in India at the time, and the basis of raja yoga and some other schools, that body health is essential for undertaking practices like concentration and meditation and the higher stages of practice. They are not just talking about the local health club, and the principles of right living, satvic diet, and sexual balance were well known in India at the time and needed no restatement. Ramana is simply saying the obvious, that health is transient at best, and that spiritual practice is not dependent on maintaining good health, and is what is important. He is not saying ignore health.

    The second question refers to another well known school of thought in India, that given the absolute law of karma, knowledge of past karma was essential to rectify it. Again, Ramana Maharshi points out the futilty of such an effort, since the assumption of the doer himself is the source of the karma.

    And what is so wrong with that, gently explaining the flaw in their assumptions about how to resolve karma? In the meantime, it is well known that in the powerful presence of Ramana Maharshi these young men were being affected and given silent instruction, a method that has a proven track record of effectiveness over time. It is important to note that Ramana himself said his Silence was more effective and there is plenty of evidence of that. The grace from the look of a Satguru and its effect can not be evaluated by snippets from a book about what was said out of context. There are many, many talks in that book. The contemporary western based assumptions about where these young people needed advice, and the cultural understanding they would have had, are just that. I do not understand the inability of those in Da’s community to presume that the words Ramana Maharshi chose were to all appearances perfectly appropriate to what they needed to hear, that there was far more than just words going on, and that what is in that book is a summary of what was said and not a transcript in any case. Now it is true that regardless of what I say, you will presume Da to be correct in his assessment because you are a devotee and that is part of the Adidam dogma. But, do you not see that the resulting presumption that Ramana Maharshi who was enlightened and actually was there in communion with the young people was so far off, can only be based on that faith? Disagreement based on faith is one thing. But the evidence taken in the larger context of the culture and Ramana Maharshi’s way of doing things simply does not support your contention that something else would have been more appropriate.

    Since you asked, there is only one particularly vivid account regarding in relation to enlightenment and Heart realization in a Ramana Maharshi devotee that I have seen that is readily available to read on the internet. If you refer to this site, you can find it: http://bhagavan-ramana.org/janakimata.html. This is the gist of it, directly copied as written from that site:

    ================

    (12th January 1938) [Sri Matha's Moment of Realization] “…In a few seconds she [Sri Matha] was drowned in meditation. Right from her feet, her limbs became rigid gradually and soon there was no sign of life in the body up to the stomach. She also could not stretch out her hands, With the torpidity slowly gaining ground, Sri Matha thought that she was nearing her end and that he life would soon be extinct. But as she was ever ready to shuffle off her physical body, there was no fear of death. Her mind withdrew itself from all thoughts of objectivity and was beholding Bhagawan Sri Ramana in her heart.

    She could see the whole of her inside in an X-rayed fashion. Sri Krisha with his captivating looks was sitting in her sahasara padma (centre of illumination) as the 16 year old Shyama Sundara, shedding the radiance of divine beauty. With a wink of his eyes, he glanced invitingly at the muladhara nodding his head. Next moment, his glorious form slipped into the void; some mysterious power hurried down to the hridaya (heart, seat of consciousness) and at the same time, kundalini sakthi from muladhara rushed up in one jump with a banging noise, tearing open as it were, the confronting obstructions. All knots were untied and they met each other at the anahatha (the heart), lost their individualities and with the way made clear by knocking open the door in the cavity of the heart, there was a grand confluence in the form of a Blazing Pillar of Light (Transcendental Limitless Self), which made haste to the sahasrara. To put in a nutshell, the subtle dynamic force, representing sakthi lying dormant in the umbilical region which has thus been aroused, ascended up and the Paramatma (The Supreme Self) came forward to welcome and embrace it. It was the merging of the jivatma (finite soul) with the Paramatma (Universal Self). The Formless Eternal Blissful Self danced in the sahasrara. It was Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. By the limitless grace of Bhagawan Sir Ramana, Sri Matha became a Jivanmukta (a liberated soul will living in the body) even before she completed thirty two years of age. The highest knowledge had dawned upon her…”

    “…[17th January 1938, right after enlightenment] In the final stage, all the diverse manifestations sank into the Void and there was the Transcendental Self shining with a fascinating brilliant radiance. It was the Sun of Knowledge, Bliss of the Atman, Supreme Self, Atma Jyoti and Sri Matha has been and is in constant awareness of Her identity with the Atma since then. Just as the flame of wick mixes with a blazing fire, just as a tumbler of water mixes with an infinite mass of water, Sri Matha merged into the Paramatma as one with it without any distinction…”

    [Now what did Ramana have to say of all this...?]

    “… She stepped into Ramanashram at 5-30 a.m. on 17th January, 1938, knelt at the feet of Bhagawan in obeisance and stood aside deferentially. Bhagawan, that dazzling Son of Jnana (Knowledge of the Absolute) cited the famous quotation from the Gita: ["Real Wisdom dawns on an aspirant after millions of births. Then realizing everything as permeated by Me, he surrenders to Me. Extremely rare is such a lofty soul to be found"]. He dwelt at length on the glorious nature of the Transcendental Self with Sri Matha was sporting at that moment…[later]…pointing at her, Bhagawan put a question and answered it himself: “Where is Vaikuntam (the abode of Vishnu)? The mind that draws no distinction between it and the Univeral Self is Vaikuntam. It is just here…[later Ramana said]…”Let This [referring to Sri Matha] sit here”…[later (19th January, 1938) Ramana said]…”Can one get this for the mere asking of it? It seeks after the heart where it wants to shine. This is a sequel to your last birth’s attainment, I am just a Karana Guru (Causal Guru) to you.”

    ========

    Apparently a remarkable woman jnani whose status it appears was approved by no one less than Ramana Maharshi himself, and hardly one detached from the world even while living as the Self. For a picture and short bio, see this site: http://janakymatha.org/aboutus.htm

    The point of this being not that you have to agree that this experience meant anything at all. You do not have to accept that Ramana Maharshi was not properly understood in Adidam, since I understand your beliefs. But rather, at least consider the possibiity that Ramama Maharshi’s work as Satguru and his understanding of the Heart and Amrita Nadi can not be fully appreciated from speculation from a distance, as if he was just talking school when referring to Amrita Nadi, the Heart and the Self, since he did have enlightened followers proving what he said in their own lives. Nor can such speculation be proven by taking isolated portions of published comments out of context as if they represented all Ramana Maharshi taught. There is a reason other than mere egoicity why a number of former Da devotees have come to see Ramana Maharshi as more what they were looking for when they went to see Da, and have become highly skeptical of Da’s assessment of him. I would hope you find the topic interesting enough to research Ramana Maharshi in much more depth for yourself regardless.

  216. Feel4God

    Stuart Says:
    December 8, 2008 at 2:23 am

    Feel for God wrote…
    > It is the talking school advocates of non-duality
    > that tend to think that such preparation and
    > submission to a Guru is unnecessary

    When someone speaks or writes criticism of the “talking school,” they’re “opening their mouth.” That means they’ve entered the talking school. To use words to criticize the talking school… is like promoting vegetarianism while eating a cheeseburger.

    The authentic way to object to the talking school is to stop talking. ”
    ************************************************
    So the authentic way to object to those who don’t stop talking about their objections to the talking school is to talk? And here I thought people wanted to hear from some Daists! ;)

    Stuart, no doubt I indulge in talking school nonsense at times. However, Adi Da has addressed that in me and other devotees so directly, that I thought it good to share with others this instruction. The ego and its methods to avoid dissolution can be very very subtle – even causal! ;)

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “Since you asked, there is only one particularly vivid account regarding in relation to enlightenment and Heart realization in a Ramana Maharshi devotee that I have seen that is readily available to read on the internet.”

    Just one. Hmmm, this does seem to support that much of the non-duality talk and self-made (guru-less) modern “realizers” are apparently of the talking school variety – or at best, they are still needing to understand and transcend these root aspects of our egoity. This is why a Spiritual Master Who has Transcended ALL of this egoity is so necessary.

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “…since I understand your beliefs. But rather, at least consider the possibiity that Ramama Maharshi’s work as Satguru and his understanding of the Heart and Amrita Nadi can not be fully appreciated from speculation from a distance, as if he was just talking school when referring to Amrita Nadi, the Heart and the Self, since he did have enlightened followers proving what he said in their own lives. Nor can such speculation be proven by taking isolated portions of published comments out of context as if they represented all Ramana Maharshi taught.”

    Apparently you don’t understand what I have been saying about Ramana Maharshi if this is your summary of it, after all of this consideration. When did I ever say anything about Sri Ramana Maharshi being of the talking school?

    I do very much appreciate all those great quotes from Ramana. And even in those hand-picked gems from Ramana, there are still statements by Ramana which indicate a separative assumption between the Self and the world:

    “The man who has realised the supreme truth of his own existence realises that it is the one supreme reality that is there behind him, behind the world.”

    Adi Da’s Teachings do not express this Eastern tendency to separate the Self and world. Again, there seems to be a difference in emphasis and function between Their Teachings and certainly how They taught, and also Their actual Guru-Function relative to Transmission.

    Also, thank you for that beautiful account from Ramana’s devotee. I found that description most interesting in terms of recognition of Ramana Maharshi and His function as Guru.

    However, I also found this statement certainly one that supports the argument that such practice still has a predilection for excluding the body-mind:

    “But as she was ever ready to shuffle off her physical body …”

    It was also very interesting, and further supports what Adi Da has said about Ramana, in Ramana’s own statement to this great devotee of His function as Guru:

    Ramana said]…”Can one get this for the mere asking of it? It seeks after the heart where it wants to shine. This is a sequel to your last birth’s attainment, I am just a Karana Guru (Causal Guru) to you.”

    Again, Adi Da stated this about Ramana Maharshi:

    “He was a True Jnana-Guru, or One Who Serves and Awakens devotees indirectly, by Silent and thought-free Self-Abidance In and As the Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) Self-Condition (and Source-Condition) That Is Consciousness Itself, but (in contrast to the case of a True Siddha-Guru) not directly, through open, voluntary, even (at least, at times) intentional, and truly consistent Spiritual Effectiveness.”

    Obviously there is nothing “talking school” about Ramana Maharshi! And as I said before, if Ramana Maharshi is truly your Guru, I am happy for you. I also imagine Ramana must have caused a stir amongst the traditions when He spoke of the superiority of His Realization.

  217. Feel4God

    And since I have already talked too much, I will simply quote some statements from Adi Da’s “Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga” to help AKASHA and others to understand how true devotion and non-duality are not mutually exclusive in the Reality-Way of Adidam – quite the contrary:

    “No amount of being studied, informed, or even scholarly about the Great Tradition of humankind can prepare you for the Real Transcendental Spiritual Process of the “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam – even if you do practice devotion to Me, and even if you do discipline the body-mind-“self” in terms of right-life practice.”

    “All who practice the “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam – and even all who study and “consider” My Divine Avataric Revelation-Word – must understand that the by-Me-Given Process of Transcendental Spirituality is (necessarily) founded not only in right devotion and right-life practice but also in the tacitly assumed (and Intrinsically egoless and searchless) disposition of the Witness-Position.”

    “The Transcendental Spiritual Reality-Process of the “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam begins Prior to the ego – not on the basis of the ego.”
    ****************************

    So after devotion, right life disciplines, and proper understanding are demonstrated stably in the devotee, the following becomes their constant spiritual practice – done always in the context of spiritually devotional recognition of the Master.

    From Adi Da’s “The Teaching Manual of Perfect Summaries” – The Five Reality-Teachings:

    Notice this:

    1. You are not the one who wakes, or dreams, or sleeps.

    2. You are the actionless and formless Mere Witness of the three common states – of waking, dreaming, and sleeping – and of all the apparent contents and “experiences” associated with the three common states of waking, and of dreaming, and of sleeping.

    3. You are not the body, or the doer of action, or the doer of even any of the body’s actions or functions.

    4. You are not the mind, or the thinker, or the doer of even any of the actions or functions of mind or of body-mind.

    5. No matter what arises – whether as or in the state of waking, or of dreaming, or of sleeping – you Are the actionless, and formless, and thought-free mere-Witness of attention itself, and of every apparent “object” of attention, and of any and every state of “experience”, and of the entirety of whatever and all that arises.

    Always intensively “consider” these Five Reality-Teachings.

    Always intensively observe and notice every moment of your “experience” – whether waking, dreaming, or sleeping – and thus and thereby, “consider” and test and directly prove these Five Reality-Teachings in the moment-to-moment of your every kind and state of “experience”.
    *******************************

  218. Michael

    I’ve just been catching up on what’s been going on here. Still a bit of “Punch & Judy” going on…

    It is clear that a chasm exists between the “pro-Adi Da” and the “anti-Adi Da” camps, and I see no way in this world that that chasm will be bridged. My own study, however, has shown that Adi Da is not the only spiritual leader who has had to endure criticism. They ALL have, including Sai Baba, Muktananda, Satchidananda, Swami Rama, Kriyananda, Rajneesh, Mahesh Yogi, and… must I go on?

    Everyone can find plenty of “points” to support their own position. Each one’s position is directly related to, if not identical to, each one’s perspective, point-of-view, ego.

    My religious point of view began as a Catholic, born into that tradition. I had many religious experiences as a child, which included a vision of Christ at the age of 4. By the time I got into high school, I was an unhappy, dark, doubtful, suicidal character… just the perfect candidate to become a spiritual seeker. Based on my lack of knowledge, I became a heavy Christian – you could even say a Jesus freak. But I was still always unhappy. My psychology teacher turned me on to many, many books. I went on to read as much religion, psychology, philosophy in a few years as any college student. One of the things I read then was “Garbage And The Goddess.” I thought it was a pretty bizarre book, and, to be honest, I didn’t really get it.

    The first teaching to really hook me was J. Krishnamurti’s, who brought order to my chaotic mind. And I liked his anti-authoritarian approach, the idea that I didn’t need to do it according to someone else’s method. I studied him for many years. Eventually, the problem I had with Krishnamurti was: the individual (me, in this case) was the result of all kinds of conditioning, limitations, flaws, mis-perceptions, misunderstandings, seeing the world through the filter of the mind. And yet, there was (according to K) no teacher, no guru. So, how does this flawed being become “a light unto itself” on that basis – or simply by “watching?” I was up against a wall.

    By this time, I’d been reading Adi Da’s books for 10 years. It took me that long to “get it.” And on the day (about 30 years ago) that I “got it,” it affected me throughout mind and body. I felt waves of energy shooting throughout my body, I was laughing uncontrollably, and, at some point, I simply “disappeared.” When I eventually “came to,” I was different. In that instant, my unhappiness, darkness, doubt and every other negative feeling was gone. I will not say that my life is 100% perfect all the time, but I have never been that dark and unhappy again.

    On that day, Adi Da became my guru. I didn’t experience any of this by way of any other teacher or teaching. It happened from reading the words of Adi Da (and I know some others have had a similar experience). I am still His devotee 30 years later, and I am not even a “perfect” devotee. But I am a devotee in spite of “me” or “you” or anyone or anything. I do not speak for anyone else, I do not speak to try to convince anyone of anything, but I will strongly disagree that Adi Da is a fraud.

  219. Aro

    Feel4God,Conradg and Former Follower & Critic,

    On the subject of the ” the regeneration of Amrita Nadi,” I am in agreement with Former follower & Critic that the Maharshi could not have been more clear on the science of the Heart. Ganapati Muni questioned him on the crucial question of Heart knot on August 14, 1917 when he was in the Virupaksha cave. The Muni recorded his response in the Ramana Gita. The commentaries are by A. R. Natarajan.

    On the 14th August, at night, I questioned the Maharshi on ‘the cutting of the knot’, regarding which even the learned have doubts.

    The effulgent Bhagavan, Ramana Maharshi, listened to the question, meditated for a while, and spoke in his divine way.

    The ‘knot’ is the link between the Self and the body. Awareness of the body arises because of this link.

    The body is matter, the Self is consciousness. The link between the two is inferred through the intellect.

    [Comm: Ramana explains the nature of the link. "The body is insentient, the Self does not rise. Within the body's limit an 'I' rises between the body and Self. It is named 'knot of matter and spirit,' 'ego,' 'bondage,' 'subtle body' and 'mind'... The ego, individuality, is the link, the knot, which has to be cut.]

    It is by the diffused light of consciousness that the body functions. Since there is no awareness of the world in sleep, swoon, and so on, the location of the self is to be inferred.

    [Comm: The Self is all pervasive. Yet It must have a location in the body... Daily, in sleep, the world is not perceived, though the body's existence continues... When there is no cognition of objects the separate consciousness, the body-mind, must have merged within, in the conscious source... From another angle it would be more appropriate to say that the body is within the Self instead of thinking the Self within the body, for it is the source from which all consciousness is derived.]

    Just as the unseen electric current passes through the visible wires, the flame of consciousness flows through the various channels(nadis) in the body.

    The flame of consciousness , taking hold of a center, lights up the entire body just as the sun illumines the whole world.

    It is because of the spreading of consciousness that one becomes aware of the body. The sages say that the center of radiation is the Heart.

    The flow of consciousness is inferred from play of forces in the channels.The forces course through the body, each hugging its particular channel.

    THE CHANNEL THROUGH WHICH CONSCIOUSNESS FLOWS IS TERMED ‘SUSHUMNA’. IT IS ALSO CALLED ‘ATMA NADI’, ‘PARA NADI’ AND ‘AMRITA NADI’.

    Because consciousness pervades the entire body, one gets attached to the body, regards the body as the Self and views the the world as apart from oneself.

    When the discriminating one becomes detached and giving up the idea that one is the body, single-mindedly enquires, the churning of the channels take place.

    On such churning of the channels, the self gets separated from them and shines forth by clinging to the SUPREME CHANNEL.

    [Comm... Sri Kapali Sastri in his commentary refers to the churning of the sea of milk in the Puranas which produced the drink of immortality, amrita. He says that in like manner properly directed self enquiry dissociates the 'I'- thought (the first manifestation of ignorance) from other thoughts and establishes the link with the eternal, ever liberated Self. As a consequence of the single minded enquiry, the individual, functioning hitherto through the different nadis, stays in the channel linking the 'sahasrara' with the Heart.]

    When consciousness stays in the supreme channel only, then ‘SELF ALONE SHINES’

    Even though the objects are near, they are not seen as separate. He is aware of the Self as clearly as the ignorant one of his body.

    The one to whom the Self alone shines, within, without and everywhere, as name and form would for the ignorant, has cut the knot

    Earlier, on August 9, 1917 Ramana Muni spoke exhaustively about the Heart.

    That from which all thoughts of embodied beings spring is Heart. Descriptions of the Heart are only mental concepts.

    In brief, the ‘I’- thought is the root of all thoughts. The source of the ‘I’- thought is the Heart.

    ‘Hridayam means ‘This is the center’. Thus it stands for the Self.

    The location of the Heart is on the right side of the chest and not on the left. The light of consciousness flows from the Heart through ‘Sushumna’ channel to ‘Sahasraha’.

    [Comm: ...True, consciousness is all embracing and indivisible. It has no 'within', no 'without' no 'right' or 'left'. In this sense, Heart, which is consciousness cannot be assigned any place in the body. But for the person who is rooted in the notion of the body, a physical location and a relationship between the individual, the separate, and the whole has to be postulated. Here Ramana stated that the channel linking the the Heart and the mind which springs from it, is termed 'Sushumna'. The other names for the same are 'atma nadi, 'amrita nadi' and 'para nadi'.]

    From ‘Sahasraha’ consciousness spreads all over the body, and then the experience of the world arises. Viewing themselves as different from that consciousness human beings get caught in the cycle of births and deaths.

    The ‘Sahasrasha’ of one who abides in the Self is pure light only. Any thought which approaches it cannot survive.

    The universe is only in the mind and the mind is nothing but the Heart. Thus the entire story of the universe culminates in the Heart.

    Just as the sun gives light to the moon, the Heart lights the mind.

    A mortal absent from the Heart sees only the mind just as the light
    of the moon alone is seen at night when the sun has set.

    Unaware that the true source of consciousness is one’s own Self, and mentally perceiving objects apart from oneself, the ignorant are deluded.

    The mind of the knower, abiding in the Heart, is merged in the consciousness of the Heart like moonlight in daylight.

    Though the verbal meaning of the term ‘prajnana’, intelligence, is the mind, the wise know its essential meaning to be the Heart. The
    Supreme is only the Heart.

    The difference between the seer and seen is only in the mind. For those abiding in the Heart the perception is unitary, one.

    [Comm: ... All duality ceases when the mind is lost in the Heart.]

  220. personalunity

    Namaste:

    For Adi Da and all of the other messiahs who claim or claimed to be “The One,” there is only one totality. The unitive sense of this universal one-ness is the sense of the Messiah in yourself.

    The present need is for more and more people to both understand the universal one-ness and sense it, so that more and more people can present the Messiah in themselves both in theory and in practice.

    Until now there have been so few teachers of divinity. Wordiness is a confusion, and different teachers use different words to teach divinity. On the other hand, Meher Baba, Ramana Maharshi, Mother Meera and other recognized human divinities projected or project the sense of one-ness most profoundly during speechless and thoughtless psychic connection. When you connect through such a silent practitioner your own divinity is made clear. It is then your job to keep the unitive sense alive by using some practical method.

    Integrating the sense of one-ness with clear words and profound reasons helps older children and adults optimize their pleasure and their intelligence. This integration also helps people understand the basic importance of sharing the goods of life so that each and every person’s giftedness, hard work, and happiness all come together and contribute to everyone’s common wealth.

    At present there are many esteemed teachers whom their followers claim to be God or the Messiah. Many loyal followers argue that only their teacher is or was “the Messiah” or “the Avatar,” or “God.” What is more basic, however, is even more profound and more beneficial: the Messiah is in each human baby but this divinity has to be taught in a theory of integration and manifested in reality as people actually put this integration theory into daily practice.

    Shalom.

    personalunity

  221. Conradg

    As a final note on the Amrita Nadi debate, I really don’t see how the quotes you have given from either Ramana or Da in any way demonstrate that Ramana was “exclusively” concentrated in the Heart on the right. If you look at the whole of Ramana’s teachings, the opposite is quite clear. He endlessly described how he saw only the Self in and as everything, without the least separation. Likewise, the quote you give from Da summarizing his approach in five steps is nothing more than basic Advaita Vedanta. It’s not bad, but it’s not at all different from the approach found within that tradition. So I really don’t see the point. You also have not addressed the obvious contradictions I pointed out in Da quoting Ramana’s reference to the regenerated Amrita Nadi, and then later claiming Ramana had only realized the exclusive heart, without Amrita Nadi. It’s obviously a false criticism, and yet you seem unwilling to acknowledge it, as if acknowleding any error on Da’s part would lead to the whole sand-castle of his teachings collapsing. If you constantly interpret everything through the lens of Adi Da’s teachings, ignoring what your own eyes and ears tell you, well, of course Da will seem right. I’m not accusing you of being brainwashed, but I don’t think you are willing to think for yourself just yet, because you seem to fear that might be a betrayal of Adi Da’s teachings. There is definitely a “mindset” issue in play here that needs to be examined. I think it’s important to step outside that mindset, and examine it critically. If it survives critical examination from outside its own assumptions, that should strengthen your convictions, rather than weaken them. But if it doesn’t, you will have to adjust accordingly, and I think I more than most know just how upsetting that can be. It’s understandable that you are reluctant to take that step, because it puts in play the very real possibility of finding out that Da was mistaken, and we all know that could possibly lead to the realization that you were mistaken about Da in all kinds of ways, and this could lead to leaving Adidam, as it did for so many others. This is why many devotees simply “won’t go there”. They have an emotional need which might be threatened by critical self-examination, and so any such criticial examination is postponed, or even condemned as “narcissus”, then it’s the opposite is actually the case. But I wish you luck in figuring these matters out for yourself, and really developing the personal autonomy and lack of dependency that will enable you to examine the truth of these things directly, rather than through approved dharmic logic. In the end, I think it leads to a much more rewarding spiritual path.

  222. Stuart

    Feel4God says:
    > So the authentic way to object to those who
    > don’t stop talking about their objections to
    > the talking school is to talk?

    Not at all. If I had objections to talking, then I’d shut up. But in fact, I have no objection to those who don’t stop talking about their objections to the talking school. I did, however, point out the inherent contradiction of these objections.

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

  223. akasha

    Sorry Feel4God, but that dog just don’t hunt.

    Yes devotion and non-dual realization are not mutally exclusive as long as your devotion doesn’t require that you fall down wiled-eyed at the feet of your object of devotion. As long as your object of devotion engenders the very real non-dual realization that you talk about, that entails the release of any sort of egoic fixtation to the object of devotion. But, I saw and see no evidence of that at all. Certainly not in anything written in these tracts by supporters of Da, but I cannot really judge what another person experiences or feels, now can I?

    You can talk the non-dual talk all day. You can quote Adi Da all day but the most ample proof was in the pudding. Unless you were a mind numbed, blissed out follower who dismissed all the ample evidence of Adi Da’s culture of abuse (and not just from him but eminating from him through his mandalic rings of the hierarchy of followers) there is no way to sugar coat the destruction of trust in a legitamate practice left in his wake.

    The biggest testimonial to what Adi Da was all about was a very early quote of his, “I will assert what I have just denied and deny what I have just asserted.” How is any argument, valid or otherwise, possible with a position that can dismiss any contrary argument with a simple statement like that. Obviously, no argument can withstand that double-bind.

    But at last, all I can say is if you are happy with your devotional life with Adi Da then fantastic. Go forth and be happy in joy and God and I will do the same.

    Akasha, out!

  224. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    [I have to break this post in two to make it fit]

    It’s funny that you would mention the “four young men” incident, since I wrote a post here a few days ago on that very incident, and Adi Da’s resulting criticism of Ramana for not going into a long explanation of diet. I wrote that not just this episode, but Da’s reaction towards it, goes a long way towards explaining why Ramana was very effective at producing mature and realized devotees, whereas Da has not been.

    What Da seems not to understand, first of all, is that in criticizing Ramana he’s actually violating his own dictum that true spiritual masters shouldn’t be criticized for “unorthodox” teachings, in that they are able to see in the moment exactly what devotees need, and teach accordingly, even if it doesn’t measure up to some kind of objective standard. Da pulls this argument out regularly to excuse/explain his own completely wierd, and hugely indulgent, and generally ineffective teaching history, but here he is trying to apply it to Ramana, second-guessing him and even suggesting this means he isn’t a true and complete Sat-Guru because he doesn’t dispense dietary advice like some Hindu cobmination of Dear Abby and Jack LaLane.

    The truth is Ramana simply wasn’t much interested in teaching about diet, and asking him about diet questions is like asking Einstein oddsmaker’s questions about how to best play blackjack or bet on horse races. Ramana was only interested in one thing, realization and how best to achieve it, and he made it quite clear to these young men that their focus on diet simply wasn’t going to do that, that they had to put their attention on realization and self-enquiry, and not be so identified with the body-mind. It’s not that Ramana had no basic recommendations for diet – he did point out that a simle vegetarian diet was best for spiritual practice – but in tis moment, with these men, he clearly felt they were best served by being turned to the radical practice, which it appears he saw them as giving short shrift to.

    And that is the problem with Adidam altogether. In general, very little of Adi Da’s face-to-face time with devotees has been committed to the direct matters of realization, whereas most of it has involved issues of diet, and rather mundane matters of that nature. The truth is that when devotees’ attentions is constantly focused on such things, they simply don’t pay much attention to the issue of realization, and the result is no mature or realized devotees. You do get plenty of people in Adidam who are virtual experts in matters of diet and raw foods preparation, but who know next to nothing about realization, and seem completely uninterested in the subject. At a certain point you have to ask yourself, which method is more fruitful. I would say it’s pretty clear that Ramana’s single-minded approach works better, and Da’s does not.

    You may have heard the general philosophical distinction between “hedgehogs and foxes”. Hedgehogs have one big idea, and everything in their system focuses on that, whereas foxes dart around trying to cover everything. Ken Wilber, for example, is a classic fox, trying to come up with comprehensive and all-inclusive theories of everything, but in the process producing nothing in particular of much value. Ramana is clearly a hedgehog, interested only in realization, and not much else. Da, like Wilber, is a fox, trying to create a massive system that accounts for everything, and yet producing very little tangible results in the end. Now, suggesting that this makes Da a “true Guru”, and Ramana only a partial one, just misses the point altogether about spiritual realization. Da simply missed the boat, confusing complexity with profundity, and comprehensiveness with depth. All that time he spent talking about peripheral matters neglected the core issues that really count, whereas Ramana’s single-minded concentration on realization, and his disregard for most other matters, is what ensured his success as a teacher.

    So when Da or you criticize Ramana for being “exclusive” in his approach to realization, neither of you appreciate how necessary it is to become so utterly committed to the process of realization that everything else pretty much drops away. This is not the “sixth stage error” as Da would put it, but the recognition that one simply cannot make compromises with the ego without fatal results to the spiritual process. Da was constantly compromising with the ego, constantly directing his devotee’s attention to this or that silly project or concern, and pretending that service to his person was the true form of devotion, rather than dedication to the process of realization, which is how Ramana measured the devotion of his followers, and how he constantly communicated to them what he wanted in the form of devotion. He wasn’t interested in having his devotees serve and promote and sell his art works, he wanted them to devote themselves to realization, to self-enquiry, and he was pleased when that was the case, and displeased when it was not. This is the sign of a true Guru, one who serves the Self, not his own bodily needs, at least beyond a very simple minimum.

    I think there’s a great lesson here for Da’s devotees, to see how Da’s failures as a teacher were a direct result of his own wandering attention, which could not remain focused on matters of realization, but constantly become obsessively involved in issues like diet and artistic creation and endless sexual experimentation and discussion of emotional problems, health problems, a thousand different subjects, the price of which was a completely splintered and unfocused community that has very little interest in realization.

    [Break] see part II below

  225. Conradg

    Part II of reply to Feel4God

    It’s good that you seem at least to be interested in these issues. It’s not as if Da never talked about these things. In fact, he wrote quite a lot about them, but again, even in the context of considering matters of realziation, the focus is very much a talking school of various endlessly elaborated ideas, rather than a simple focus on what is necessary. A devotee I spoke with recently told me that Da had written a new set of five “core” books, and he described how one of them greatly simlified the core practice by throwing out all the various ways of faith and reverse-enquriy and so on, leaving behind only a single form, I think called “the preliminary perfect practice”. At first I thought this sounded like a move in the right direction, that he was cutting things down to the essentials, until I was told that that the book was so huge it would have to published in two separate volumes. How typical of Da, he’s just incapable of focusing and keeping things simple, he has to write endlessly until everything is left a complex mush of concepts. You see, that’s talking school.

    Ramana avoided all that by keeping everything very simple. When most people asked about practice, he simply recommended self-enquiry (although in some cases he recommended a simple devotional practice, since he recognized that self-enquiry was not for everyone). He didn’t want things to become complicated an unwieldly, because it just confused devotees and filled their minds with concepts. He didn’t like talking about philosophy, and usually ignored such questions. He didn’t talk about Amrita Nadi much, or other yogic issues, because it didn’t much serve devotee’s process. Instead, he directed devotee’s attention back to its source, constantly, not just by words, but by his very Presence. As others have mentioned, Ramana’s primary method of teaching was in silence, and he said that his words were only for those who could not readily grasp what he communicated in silence. This did not make him an inadequate Guru, it’s what made him a real Guru.

    All Da’s endless gabbing is what made him a talking school Guru, and Adidam into the ultimate talking school gathering. That’s the irony of Da. He criticized the talking school quite frequently, without acknowledging that this is essentially what Adidam is – a talking school. There’s no mature practice in Adidam, no realizers, just a lot of talk, and some yogic experiences that people think means they are not talking school, but are precisely what the talking school justifies all their talk with. There’s nothing wrong with talk, but unless mature realization follows, the talk is just distraction and counter-productive. We can all criticize ourselves for that, but if we are to compare Ramana’s ashram with Adi Da’s, we can see that it is in Da’s ashram that the talking school has pretty much replaced any serious interest in realization with mere talk and very little in the way of real practice. In fact, all the talk has made people extremely uncertain of what real practice is, whereas in Ramana’s case it’s pretty clear what he was teaching and how realization came about, if anyone was interested in that.

    Now, as to whether Ramana is my Guru or not, I’m not sure what to say. I experienced a direct and personal initiation by Ramana before I even met Da, so I’m inclined to say yes, but Ramana himself was quite unorthodox, and didn’t like to acknowledge himself as part of the Guru system of India. He considered himself atiashrama, and never gave anyone formal diksha, nor did he consider it necessary or meaningful. This is not, contrary to Da’s insinuations, because he wasn’t a true Sat-Guru, it was precisely because true Sat-Gurus are not terribly interested in formal matters, as Da clearly was. Even so, the Hindu system recognizes realizers like Ramana very easily and clearly, and Ramana was universally recognized as a true realizer and Guru, whether he personally acknowledged it or not.

    The same is not true of Da, however; quite the opposite. Neither traditional nor modern Hindus recognize Da as a genuine Guru, much less a Sat-Guru. He is widely considered a fraud and a charlatan, a typical westerner who tries to appropriate Vedantic teachings in a self-possessed, narcissistic manner, and glorifies himself in the process, which debasing the very teachings and traditions he borrows from. That’s the sad fact. Not even the more eclectic, mystical figures in the spiritual scene recognize Da as anything more than a very talented and interesting failure, someone with potential who severely crashed do to his rejection of his traditional teachers like Muktananda, and his misunderstandings of realizers like Ramana.

    Imagine how different it could have been. Da could have had faith in his original radical teachings in the Knee of Listening. He could have rejected the temptation to “teach down” to his devotees, and just persisted in the radical teaching all these years, never faltering from it, never “experimenting” with all the various forms of nonsense he got into, just constantly re-directing his devotees attention to the source, and persistently reminding them of the basic truth. My guess is that this method would have been far more successful at producing mature and realized devotees in the long run, even if in the short run many would have had a hard time understanding what he was talking about.

    Looking at the history of Adidam, he went off course almost from the start. I’m not even talking about Garbage and the Goddess, I’m talking about the Method of the Siddhas period, when he instituted all kinds of strict dietary and other disciplines, and people’s attention got fixated on such matters. Of course, each attempt to “correct” this by upsetting the applecart simply made things worse. Each experimental period produced even more errors that needed to be corrected by still more experiments that produced more errors, ad infinitum. Until now we have hundreds of useless books that could and perhaps should just be burned, like the literally tons of pages of his writings in the 1960’s that he burned on the beach. In the end, silence really is the best teaching, as Ramana knew all along, and had the courage to live by.

  226. Conradg

    Michael, I appreciate your story about becoming a devotee. Mine was rather similar. I don’t think any reasonable person here would suggest you simply accept that Adi Da is a fraud, and turn your back on it all. It’s certainly true that others teachers have had to endure criticism, even many who were actual realizers. But that’s the point, they endured the criticism and survived it.

    Adi Da and his community has simply avoided and ignored all criticism, and derided all critics as somehow being spiritually crippled or hating God. Whereas Ramana, when a former member of his ashram wrote a phamphlet critical or Ramana, told his devotees it should be handed out at the gate of the ashram for all to read. He thought everyone should have a chance to consider the criticism of him, and if they found it convincing, to stay away. (I don’t think that happened, but the principle held true for him)

    Similarly, Ramana raised no objections when people argued vigorously with him about some topic or other, whether it was a devotee or an outsider visitor. Sometimes he was just silent, if he didn’t think talk would do any good, but often he answered the objections as best he could. Other great teachers did the same. Nisargadatta was famous for allowing extremely harsh arguments from those who came to him, and not flinching, but patiently answering all their objections. Likewise with Papaji and many others. That’s the real tradition of realizers, not this fake tradition promoted in Adidam where realizers are “protected” by their devotees from ever having to face criticism.

    So yes, there is a great gulf between Adidam and its critics, precisely because Adi Da never faced up to criticism in his entire life. He always denied it, ignored it, ran away from it, or protected himself from it. Once he had his own ashram, he simply edited it all out, and prevented any criticism from even being voiced to him. We all know what that produced in Adidam, an Alice-In-Wonderland world where only “good news” could get through to him. It’s what inflamed the 1985 dissident crisis into a full blown media scandal, as Adi Da refused to even speak with those who had criticism of him, forcing them to go to the media instead. And it’s what has kept Adidam a fragile, isolated community of weak and confused spiritual cultists, incapable as advocates of their religion of really forming mature, open, honest relationships with the world outside of Adidam, because they simply cannot deal with the criticism which inevitably follows.

    There’s no real spiritual rationale for this. The history of spirituality is full of very intense public debates and arguments, even among realizers. Look at Buddhists and Hindus. There was never any shortage of criticism between those two groups, even at the highest level of realization and dharma. Thats one of the very things that kept those traditions strong and alive, their ability to criticize and acdept criticism, and grow from it.

    But somehow, we are expected to accept that Adidam simply cannot survive criticism, and this “gulf” is due to the disrespectful nature of Adi Da’s critics. Well, no, that’s not it at all. It doesn’t matter how respectful Adidam’s critics are, Adidam will simply not respond honestly to those criticism, or engage the critics, and that’s a precedent that has been established by Adi Da himself, so I don’t see it changing, ever. Part of the problem is that to engage the critics, Adidam would have to admit openly to what it has actually done, what Adi Da has actually done, and that is well known to be so scandalous and abusive that Adidam simply wouldn’t survive that kind of openness and honesty.

    So instead, Adidam simply ignores the criticism, and hopes that it will just go away. With the internet, however, and the virtually infinite survivability of threads just like this one, the criticism of Adidam doesn’t go away at all, it just persists and produces antibodies in the general culture against groups like Adidam, that prevent them from growing and gaining many new converts. If Adidam is ever to have a chance of growing and surviving as a spiritual community, it is going to have to open up to the truth of its past and the reality of the criticism of it. The fact that it very likely will not is a very bad sign for its future, I think, in that even if it were to beat the odds and grow, what would grow would be an authoritarian religion hostile to all criticism and self-examination, and the world simply doesn’t need any more of those.

    I do appreciate your attempts to engage critics here. It’s very rare among long term devotees. I would never criticize you for choosing Adi Da as your Guru, or persisting in that devotion for as long as you have. I certainly did for nearly as long as you have. And I never chose to leave Adidam, it’s only that I examined the truth of these things closely enough, first in the process of defending Adi Da, that my conscience simply couldn’t deny these matters any more, and eventually I came to realize that I simply wasn’t a devotee anymore, and didn’t accept the things I had once thought to be true. That was a very difficult transition, but an unavoidable one as well, and it turns out, a very healthy passage. It begins with the willingness to actually face criticism honestly. From that, only good things can follow. O had assumed that what would follow would be a re-affirmation of Adidam’s essentialy Truth. To my surprise, it didn’t work out that way. Oh, well! If you have faith in your own process, all will turn out for the best, is all I can say. I wish you great good luck.

  227. Nat Raj from the Summer of Love '66

    I wish to stipulate that my earlier epitaph/eulogy/song translation was a sincere display in that moment in time of deeper hidden feelings from a time me long past, and simply a way to say farewell in as loving & peaceful way as I possibly could.

    However in no way do I wish it to be construed by followers supporters and devotees of Da/FJ as a cloaked desire to rekindle that relationship.Over is FINISHED!

    As it happens my views based on a critical evaluation of the facts here aswell as my own insights coincide very much with what has been said by the dissenting voices here, and the authoritarianism, abuse cover-ups and brainwashing of this cult is not something I have even one inkling of desire to support or get involved with EVER AGAIN in any way shape or form or on any level.

    As far as i am concerned it really is FJAD RIP. (Requiescat in Pacem)

    Thank you and goodbye

  228. Feel4God

    Stuart Says:
    “Not at all. If I had objections to talking, then I’d shut up. But in fact, I have no objection to those who don’t stop talking about their objections to the talking school.”

    Good to hear because I also don’t have any objections to your not objecting about talking about those who don’t stop talking about their objections to the talking school!

    akasha Says:
    “But at last, all I can say is if you are happy with your devotional life with Adi Da then fantastic. Go forth and be happy in joy and God and I will do the same.”

    Good! The same to you!

    Conradg Says:
    “Likewise, the quote you give from Da summarizing his approach in five steps is nothing more than basic Advaita Vedanta. It’s not bad, but it’s not at all different from the approach found within that tradition. So I really don’t see the point.”

    The point of this quote was to show AKASHA and others that the Reality Way of Adidam is not just about devotion – but also right life, AND the tacit assuming of the Witness beyond egoity. AKASHA was making an argument that Adidam is not about non-dualism, but only about devotion. But he didn’t get my point, and now you don’t either? Hmmm… The quote from Adi Da addresses AKASHA’S mistaken presumptions about the Way of Adidam rather clearly, I thought.

    Conradg Says:
    “As a final note on the Amrita Nadi debate, I really don’t see how the quotes you have given from either Ramana or Da in any way demonstrate that Ramana was “exclusively” concentrated in the Heart on the right.”

    You sure read a lot into my posts, Conradg. I never said that I thought Ramana was just exclusively identified with the heart on the right. He wouldn’t be able to function in the world if this was the case. I said He showed a predilection for that approach; and as reflected in various quotes we gathered from His Teachings – an emphasis on that, including Teachings about concentrating attention inwardly. And even He called himself a “Causal Guru” – which certainly ties in with what Adi Da says in terms of Ramana being a True Jnana-Guru. What else would you make of this statement:

    Ramana said]…”Can one get this for the mere asking of it? It seeks after the heart where it wants to shine. This is a sequel to your last birth’s attainment, I am just a Karana Guru (Causal Guru) to you.”

    And really, since it appears that no one but Adi Da and Ramana have Teachings relative to Amrita Nadi, I defer to what Adi Da says on the matter – and no, not just blindly. Your arguments don’t hold up 100% Conradg, as I have been continually pointing out with various quotes. Both you and Former Follower (in his last post about my so-called assuming that Ramana was of the talking school) make some very exaggerated fundamentalistic-type summaries of what I said, and then come to your same fixed conclusion.

    Really, there is no way to absolutely tell until someone else with at least the kind of Direct Knowledge and Regard that Adi Da has on these most advanced Spiritual matters cares to share them with us. I don’t think I will wait that long. ;)

    All of this mindfulness, regardless of how discriminating it may be in your case, is still just mind, Conrad. It seems to me from your posts, that because you think you have found an error in Adi Da’s reasoning about Ramana, that your mindset was undermined and that was your rationale for leaving Him. I highly doubt that this is the REAL reason for your departure, but somehow it justifies it at a very intellectual level.

    From a conventional standpoint, Adi Da “gave” us endless reasons to depart His Company – at every level! It was all a test to make us stronger, to grow up, to grow in our capacity to conduct His Love-Bliss, to surrender most deeply without reserve, bodily and emotionally – and not just with the mind – and to also prepare us for every change, even death, all worlds, all experiences. Why should we care about these brain-minds – they go in an instant! Just like they should in beholding Who He Really Is.

    He shows us the Heart – and Invades us directly as the Love-Bliss of Reality Itself. I was mightily offended by Him in all kinds of ways, but I knew intuitively, at the heart, feeling His Presence, in His Eyes, that He Is Love and that I could surrender to and trust Him from the very beginning. I am certainly glad that I have stayed – I am not swayable in my fundamental conviction to Him now. It transcends all of this mindfulness, this enjoyable debate, right or wrong, this need to have it be some kind of perfection, this life.

    Adi Da was always refining His Teaching, and His relationship with us. But from the beginning, it was always about Satsang, Communion, Oneness with Reality, the Love-Bliss of Consciousness Itself!

    And even if He was apparently wrong about something, so what? I just know that He did what He did to get our attention to notice His Freedom, His Love, His Heart, His Absolute Bliss and Consciousness as the Bright – to Stand out for our sake! To wake us up to our Reality! And if that offended our egos along the way, so be it!

    Let’s see, pick a direct relationship with Love-Bliss or my mind, body ….

    Do I choose me or this: http://www.adidaupclose.org/Adidam_In_Perpetuity/announcement.html

    Hmmm, not a tough choice in my book.

    However, if He is not right for someone, or perhaps not just right yet, then so be it. But please don’t think that I or other Daists would all of sudden abandon our Communion with Him if we find something out we disagreed with Him on. Believe me, I have disagreed, and it matters not one iota in the big picture with Him.

    Because you seem much more adamant that you are right about this Amrita Nadi consideration, than I, I can only presume that it opened up a flood gate of doubts, etc., when you came to this conclusion. Of course, you know that belief in the Master was never the basis for the relationship to Him, so doubt is also not an issue if that is truly understood.

    If you do not RECOGNIZE Him as Acausal Reality by letting go all of this mind, then fine – that is your conclusion.
    Personally, as you can probably tell by now, this debate makes no difference to me – I just wanted to relate to you.

    Later!

  229. Michael

    I came to this website on the day after Adi Da’s passing, by browsing through whatever articles came up regarding His death. I would like to say that I’m very glad I came upon this site, and I’ve been exploring other aspects of it. It’s been extremely enjoyable and interesting. I’m hooked!
    I also want to thank Conradg for sharing. Conrad, you are one of the few ex-devotees who has been able to express criticism without resorting to a lot of the adolescent-style biting that comes from some of the less disciplined, and I respect that. In the end (whatever that means), I have enough reason to believe that there is only God, and that we all – everyone and everything – are arising in God. Somehow, in that, we are One, non-dualistic, no-other; and, somehow, in that, we are just that. It’s just very hard trying to express it with this brain… ;-]

  230. shiva

    @ConradG:
    i believe you are wasting your time.
    i don’t see how one could possibly ignore your intelligent, well worded and constructed analysis of the da-ramana differences and of adidam and the devotees in general.

    however, there is simply no getting through to the da-ists. i really appreciate Feel4God as an intelligent being who tries to be open in this debate but simply cannot bring himself to release his adidam-conditioning. and that would be necessary to see the truth in what ConradG is saying.

    apparently, my posts here have created a bit of a stir on the island. i guess many have been able to determine who i am and they just cannot fathom how i could possibly have posted what i did here. i was not particularly trying to hide my identity that well, the main reason i tried it at all was to protect my wife who was on the island until yesterday. i know how intolerant, closed-minded and extremely fearful of ANY criticism whatsoever pretty much every long-term devotee of adi da is and i was afraid my postings here, despite my honest intentions, would have consequences for her. but they did. on sunday she wrote me a rather upset email asking me to not post here anymore, etc. she wasn’t specific about the pressure she experienced but i can imagine how it went. i know the drill. been there. done that.

    in that sense Feel4God is a good representative of adidam. although clearly an intelligent being, he is not able to see beyond his adidam conditioning to accept obvious truths. and having been exposed to the adidam conditioning for so long, he cannot really be blamed. i do get the sense from him that he is trying to be open in this forum. but alas…

    here’s how the adidam conditioning works (excerpts):
    as one critic here said, if you loose your partner, your money, your life you are supposed to see the humor and the “lesson” in it. it is obviously a “purification”. if, however, adi da’s umbrella didn’t open immediately this was a matter of the utmost emergency and the entire ashram was mobilized to rectify the situation as this was obviously a failure in everybody’s devotion. as twisted as this may sound to people who have not been around adi da, this is EXACTLY how it worked. i’ve seen similar incidents many times. adi da simply could not be “disturbed” by “bad news”. even if they were important for him to know, they would not be reported. period. and this did indeed create a “alice in wonderland” sense of “reality” in and around adi da.

    if adi da did something obviously stupid (like spending money that wasn’t there) or despotic (like seriously mistreating somebody) it was simply his “crazy-wise” teaching method that every devotee needed to understand as such. and if you nevertheless voiced concern or (god forbid!) even criticism you were “invited” to a group with your “friends” where your head was set straight. if that failed, you were disciplined by doing some service nobody wanted to do or you were taken off the darshan list. criticism or even concern in any way, shape or form was ABSOLUTELY NOT TOLERATED. period.

    i could go on and on here about how the adidam conditioning was set up, but i don’t think i need to. i am sure every long-term (ex-)devotee here will be able to confirm that i am not exaggerating.
    to my shame i must admit that i actually bought that conditioning and supported it at times. as long as i was convinced that adi da was the god-man, i felt the need to protect him. there were, however, many things i did not agree with but then i was re-conditioned by the peer pressure and discipline machinery and because i still believed that adi da was the god-man i wanted to make sure that access to him was not withdrawn. let me tell you, the conditioning scheme works really well.

    because it works so well, there is simply to getting through with reason. intelligent argumentation as demonstrated in this blog is by far not sufficient to get through the psychological walls erected by the adidam conditioning.

  231. blisscake

    Dear Friends and Lovers of The Bright One.

    Alas my last post from Fiji, and what a profound and extraordinary journey it has been.
    The Vigil here continues and I was fortunate enough to sit at the site for some hours yesterday night, Infact yesterday all in all was a powerful day. I amused at one point about all the back and forth on this site, when there is actualy no question in the open heart, feeling the Bright perfect presence of The Great Avatar.. who never left, somehow and slowly the truth of this profoundity is sinking in.. He never left, infact nothing changed at all.. from the feeling point of view, also as the process of connecting to people here has continued and my own sitting at the Brighness site and In the meditation halls it is clear that the spiritual process that Adi Da was ingaged in with devotees here has continued unobstructed if not even intensified with many feeling the ease of communion to be greater. 4 new devotees became initiated a few days ago and it took a while for me to realize the segnificance, the way goes on, He goes on.. The way to the Brightness or Reality itself, Perfect prior unity itself freely given to all, The Portal, The form of Adi Da Samraj, Each Photo or video a vehecle for His transmission and a way for mankind to commune with ‘The Heart’ Perfectly… some get it and its clear.. no argument no mind about it.. Just obvious and many of those people are here sharing their incredable stories of How The Great One found them in the midst of this maddening dream..
    Adi Da showed me one time how everything was arising in Him… all of this all the the minds and maddening maddness..all in Him seemingly seperate, so last night at the Brighness site, My befudled mind was once again outshined by His presence.. and all arising thoughts lost there grip as He, as He always said, Brightened seeming seperate me to the place where mind has no forms. and the breath is deep with the thick bliss of Da.
    What a wonder and what did any of us do to deserve such a gift as to spend a second in the company or even the feeling perception of Adi Da Samraj, The Maha Siddha of Maha Siddhas, The Last Avatar who finally gave the simple and perfect revelation “Reality Is The One God There Is” and dear friends wether you like it or not, Bliss is bliss and love is love, light is light and happiness is happiness.. when you know you know and there is not a question about it.. because there is no one left to care.

    Shiva I love you brother… what to do.. He washes everything..

    let me dig in my little retreat bag and find a last quote for you lovers of the Bright one..

    here it is this seems to fit the bill of this blog…

    “You need not be concerned with how much concentration of mind there is, how much poetic vision there is, how much relaxation there is in the body, how pleasant the conditions of life are.
    You need not be concerned with the fact that life is difficult at the moment, or that you yourself are obnoxious.
    You need not be concerned about any of it!

    All of that content is simply the inevitable suffering that is the result of conditional existence. All you need do is Find Me—by Means of devotional Communion with Me. Be Attracted to Me, and let the body-mind-complex be changed by My Divine Avataric Transcendental Spiritual Self-Transmission. ”

    well I know we have all felt the truth of that here..

    with more Love then I could ever self generate Blisscake xxx

  232. atiasrama

    I wonder if this wonderful thread will continue on in some way?
    (There’s always the lightgate.net setting….where everyone is older and mellower now and probably not going to be too terribly disrespectful to any Daists posting there….or, am I being Pollyanna again?)

    BTW, great to get some sort of news from Naitauba.

  233. Feel4God

    My, my, my… More debate posts from Conradg. Didn’t you say several posts ago “As a final note on the Amrita Nadi debate…”? ;)

    Conradg, so I started going through your last several long posts last night (which were not posted when I wrote my last one) but decided to just leave my last post as my final “debate” post – since that post actually seemed fitting, even given your very long resurrection of the debate. However, today, after reading this:

    shiva Says:
    “however, there is simply no getting through to the da-ists. i really appreciate Feel4God as an intelligent being who tries to be open in this debate but simply cannot bring himself to release his adidam-conditioning. and that would be necessary to see the truth in what ConradG is saying.”
    “…in that sense Feel4God is a good representative of adidam. although clearly an intelligent being, he is not able to see beyond his adidam conditioning to accept obvious truths. and having been exposed to the adidam conditioning for so long, he cannot really be blamed. i do get the sense from him that he is trying to be open in this forum. but alas…”

    …and even though my debate hat was very happily off, I have to put it back on (and, unfortunately, it never feels like a very good fit, to be honest) – just so shiva may become open enough to know that I am not “Adidam-conditioned” as he summarily pronounces (basically in order to dismiss everything I said and quoted).

    This is what real conditioning is, guys – whatever does not fit into our egoic minds, we attempt to revise, to compartmentalize, to envelope it in order to control it, to even reduce it to some “fundamentalistic” (even bizarre) summary in order to dismiss it – so that it cannot threaten us. We all do that by tendency with Adi Da – the ego knows in order to “survive”, it must make whatever is Greater than it, subservient to it, or maximally, equal to it. So we all like the “Oneness” (non-dual) argument from an egoic (mind-dharma) standpoint because we can then feel equal with even the greatest of Masters! Plus we don’t even need them! But no ego survives that ultimate Event – and that is why very very very few beings have ever realized it – and no one without a true Master.

    Our being ultimately One is not at all the same as this kind of “equality” the ego wants to settle for. The ego does not want Real God (actual Acausal Oneness), because then it will no longer be glorified separately. So we like to mentalize about this lofty state of “Oneness” – talking school – to try to reduce even the greatest of Masters to be contained within our minds (no matter how expanded our mind may feel the “Oneness”). It is the height of delusion – and has been thoroughly addressed by Adi Da Samraj.

    So we persist in seeking to make Acausal Reality subservient to conditional reality in all kinds of more and more subtle ways – but it is impossible, as we can clearly see, with real study and beholding of Adi Da Samraj.

    Conradg is making quite the effort to do just this, but it really has failed on so many fronts that in order to fully respond to his last few posts, there may have to be a new hard drive installed on this Blog site’s server! ;)

    Anyway, I will try to contain myself and post only a few of the many counter arguments that come to mind:

    Conradg Says:
    “What Da seems not to understand, first of all, is that in criticizing Ramana he’s actually violating his own dictum that true spiritual masters shouldn’t be criticized for “unorthodox” teachings, in that they are able to see in the moment exactly what devotees need, and teach accordingly, even if it doesn’t measure up to some kind of objective standard.

    It seems to me that this was simply an observation by Adi Da about Ramana’s own predilection to deal with the highest levels of spirituality mainly, and not the more mundane (preparatory) aspects.

    Hey, you even say this here:

    Conradg Says:
    “The truth is Ramana simply wasn’t much interested in teaching about diet…”

    Conradg Says:
    “At a certain point you have to ask yourself, which method is more fruitful. I would say it’s pretty clear that Ramana’s single-minded approach works better, and Da’s does not.”

    So where are all these Realizers of Amrita Nadi? Sri Ramana Maharshi has many many thousands of followers – way more than Adi Da, so by your statement, there should necessarily be many many more Realizers – but there are not. Plus Ramana was born 40 years earlier than Adi Da in a country where Gurus are revered. This comparison is absurd, Conradg, and you know it, for these and many other reasons.

    Conradg Says:
    “Da, like Wilber, is a fox, trying to create a massive system that accounts for everything, and yet producing very little tangible results in the end.”

    The “end”? What has ended? Adi Da, as I mentioned a while back, has always said that the community of real practitioners would be His Form – and even more so after His Mahasamadhi.

    Conradg Says:
    “So when Da or you criticize Ramana for being “exclusive” in his approach to realization, neither of you appreciate how necessary it is to become so utterly committed to the process of realization that everything else pretty much drops away.”

    Are you actually saying Adi Da was not committed to the process of realization? Have you actually read The Knee of Listening? Adi Da was utterly one-pointed! And as our Master, He brought that same utter commitment to us! We were a very unprepared group way back then – and so began the Teaching years from the ground up.

    Conradg Says:
    “I think there’s a great lesson here for Da’s devotees, to see how Da’s failures as a teacher were a direct result of his own wandering attention, which could not remain focused on matters of realization, but constantly become obsessively involved in issues like diet and artistic creation and endless sexual experimentation and discussion of emotional problems, health problems, a thousand different subjects, the price of which was a completely splintered and unfocused community that has very little interest in realization.”

    I thought you were more discriminating than this – now I think I understand why you left – you cannot recognize that Adi Da is the Acausal Reality because you want Him to look a certain way in your mind – like Ramana Maharshi, I guess. But even with Ramana Maharshi, you still sound ambivalent about Him being your Guru – which really does not surprise me, if you know what I mean.

    Just look at Adi Da’s picture – any picture you like – there is no ego there! You are so stuck in your need to have your Guru and this process look a certain way, that you now blame Adi Da’s full consideration of all stages of development a distraction to you? How oedipal! How silly! You could have been sitting in the Meditation Halls as much as you wanted, invoking the Divine, bathing in all that Siddhi on those Sanctuaries, doing whatever worked best for you! Were you totally one-pointed in every Darshan? Did you go to every Darshan? Did you go on long-term retreats frequently? That was all made available in His Company far more often than most of us ever wanted! You obviously chose something else to do with your life and now you want to blame Adi Da?

    So given your statements and your departure from Adi Da, are you now completely focused on God-Realization? Meditating constantly? Seriously, how is that going?

    Conradg Says:
    “As others have mentioned, Ramana’s primary method of teaching was in silence, and he said that his words were only for those who could not readily grasp what he communicated in silence. This did not make him an inadequate Guru, it’s what made him a real Guru.”

    Again, you are twisting what was said. Adi Da never said anything about Ramana being an “inadequate” Guru – He said that He worked in Silence and was a True Jnana Guru. And just so, Ramana called himself – a “Causal Guru”. And, as you also point out, Ramana seldom acknowledged His even being a Guru.

    This is another example, Conradg, of where you exaggerate what was said into something negative – in order to dismiss it and ultimately whoever said it. You are playing out an oedipal drama here of wanting to be rejected so you can feel more betrayed and justified in your decision to reject Adi Da and Adidam. At least for the sake of the debate, quit misquoting and misconstruing!

    Conradg Says:
    “And that is the problem with Adidam altogether. In general, very little of Adi Da’s face-to-face time with devotees has been committed to the direct matters of realization, whereas most of it has involved issues of diet, and rather mundane matters of that nature.”

    This is just not true in my experience. I have been to hundreds and hundreds of gatherings and Adi Da almost always considered the most fundamental spiritual processes – and if He didn’t, He always brought the consideration full circle back to the core argument of Oneness with the Divine. And for us, it was always an extended Darshan occasion regardless. The entire Indoor Summer and Indoor Yajna periods for instance. And the endless hours of Revelation Discourses in 2005, etc., etc., etc. Are you kidding? Some 60+ books of the most sublime esoteric spiritual considerations ever to Grace this world – combined with the truth of non-duality with every stage of development!

    Statements like this one from you, Conradg, make me think you really missed the non-dual foundation of devotional communion, and so were not involved in the same way as many of us are.

    Conradg Says:
    “I think called “the preliminary perfect practice”. At first I thought this sounded like a move in the right direction, that he was cutting things down to the essentials, until I was told that that the book was so huge it would have to published in two separate volumes. How typical of Da, he’s just incapable of focusing and keeping things simple, he has to write endlessly until everything is left a complex mush of concepts. You see, that’s talking school.”

    The preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice is summarized by the Five Reality Teachings, which I posted yesterday, and you called “not bad”. That was as clear and as simple as it gets in terms of the non-dual aspect of this initial spiritual practice (once the devotional and right life disciplines are demonstrated). Those Five Teachings are what we are to consider and practice constantly each day, whereas the rest of the essays expand on all the various aspects of our spirituality, the Perfect Practice, etc. They are all Forms of Remembrance.

    Well, I had been pasting some of the things you say from your last few posts, but after these last several quotes, it seems useless to me at this point to respond to each and every one of your statements. You draw various negative conclusions which I can only assume are due to unresolved issues you have. You also are basically complaining endlessly (albeit often subtly) in these last few posts and seemingly more and more “righteously” (pretentiously) rather than balanced in your criticism. I actually think you are trying a “tar-baby” approach to get some Daists angry at you here, so that your critic-friends and you can once again write off Daists and most especially, Adi Da – as being unloving, irrational, not understanding non-dualism, whatever. I imagine something like this has already occurred in the past – because when I have spoken to people who left, this was indeed the case. I have also noticed that critics can write all kinds of wrongful vicious statements about Adi Da, and not once has any one of you mentioned to them about that being unloving. But as soon as a Daist even offers the slightest constructive criticism to a critic – look out! Definitely feels like a double-standard is operating here – can that be called “critic-conditioning”. Who is the master critic? :P

    Regardless, self-understanding is required in all of us before any real spiritual development will occur – and especially in these matters of understanding Real Non-Dualism.

    Just to be clear and balanced, I am not saying that Daists are perfect – far from it. I know I am an asshole, however I also know that I have been Graced by the Divine in so many ways. I could have just avoided this whole blog, and gone the “way of Stuart” – by keeping silent about all this talking school non-duality business. I normally would have, but when I saw some devotees posting on this blog, and then some very aberrated posts by some “critics”, I decided not to stay quiet.

    And to clarify further, I am no official of Adidam, and my statements are mine only. No one is telling me what to write here either. In fact only a few people know that I am even doing this, and they do not read this blog, as most Daists would not want to.

    Now how does all your summarily dismissive exaggerated ranting, Conrad, tie in with what you quoted about Papaji relative to complaining about previous Gurus?

    Conradg Says:
    “The best thing I’ve ever heard about this sort of thing comes from Papaji. In the last years of his life, lots of westerners began coming to him, often complaining about some exploitive or misleading Guru they had before him (lots of them former Rajneeshis). He told them unequivocably, “There are no false Gurus, there are only false devotees”. His meaning was very clear, that what ruins and falsifies the spiritual process is not the Guru, no matter how limited that Guru might be, but the devotee’s own false intentions and approach. In essence, he laid everything in the hands of the devotee. If they were true and right, their spiritual progress would be guaranteed, regardless of whatever Guru they were with. This message of Papaji’s has struck me very hard, and seems irrefutable. My time in Adidam certainly backs it up, not just in my case, but in the case of everyone I ever knew there. Some people who approached the process seriously got real wisdom and growth, and those who didn’t, just didn’t. The way to judge that wouldn’t probably be the same as it is judged within Adidam, in fact it might actually be close to the opposite of how it’s seen in Adidam, but the principle remains true nonetheless.”

    I can only assume that the debate stirred all of this up again for you, Conrad – because after a certain point in your posts, your complaints were way stronger than your rationale. And to glorify such complaining as an “anti-body” to Adidam… My God!

    Adi Da never allowed us to create a fixed image of Him – and this, I know personally, is very very hard on the ego. So really, I do understand the great difficulty with all of this. Like you, I have also been through much and though I understand a lot of what you say, Conradg, I cannot be so pretentious as to jump to negative conclusions about my Spiritual Master. It would never be justified in my very direct and long-time relationship with Him. Again, I look at a picture of Him, and then me in the mirror – hmmm, totally obvious who the ego is here!

    shiva, I have no idea who you are and that is fine. I only knew Conradg as someone who did astrology in Adidam, so we did not travel in the same circles. I had no idea until this blog that Conradg was studying Ramana Maharshi’s Teachings. Like I said, I mentioned Ramana Maharshi as a common ground to consider non-duality around. Go figure, the psychophysics of things – how related (one) we actually are!

    And also, speaking of astrology and psychophysics, I was disappointed, Conrad, that you made no comment about that very cool “Happy Face” conjunction. Maybe you missed my post about it.

    Feel4God Says:
    @ Conradg – Weren’t you an astrologer in Adidam for a while? I think it is also interesting to note that Jupiter, Venus, and the Moon were all part of a Grand Trine in Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer (all three water signs) respectively, upon Bhagavan Adi Da’s birth. Those two planets and the moon are generally equated with expansiveness, love, and nurturing respectively – if I recall correctly.

    And another friend mentioned this:

    This Happy face was made from the three brightest lights in the night sky.
    ***************************
    Here is a different photo of the Happy Face than I posted before, that occurred during Adi Da Samraj’s Mahasamadhi – taken from the Phillipines very close to Fiji:

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081202-venus-jupiter-photo.html

    Anyway, I also enjoyed re-reading a leela about a Ramana devotee who saw a very unusual shooting star which turned out to be psychophysically timed with Ramana’s Mahasamadhi. Given Adi Da’s incredible sense of humor, it is no wonder that the cosmos’ psychophysics were that of a Happy Face! Hahahahahaha, that still really cracks me up!

    I too wish you the best, Conrad. I hope your practice always becomes more and more whole bodily devotional recognition of Reality Itself!

    Take care everyone!

  234. slyder

    Feel4God says;

    “And really, since it appears that no one but Adi Da and Ramana have Teachings relative to Amrita Nadi, I defer to what Adi Da says on the matter”…

    Inherent in this statement, and many others, is that the ability of Ramana or Frank to speak to “Amrita Nadi”, is a sign of realization…6th or 7th stage. It is in fact a false argument implying “Authenticity”, and, in this case “Divine Authenticty”. It is a concept, and, to speak to it, is a “sign” of just that…conveying a concept. Its true value is only in the one that gives it that quality. In the case of Ramana, his speaking to it was used as a “pointer to” and he did not build up a cosmology around it as Frank did. Although Ramana spoke to it, it was not his focus nor did he infere importance to it, nor, did he claim it to authenticate his Divinity. Frank, on the other hand, has use this argument (one of all so many) to self-authenticate. All it realy proves is that he, like you and I, read about it. That he pontificated on the subject, self-proclaimed his own “unique understanding” of it, does not make it true. In order for that to happen one must convey to him “Authority” and even then it isn’t true. No-one but Frank has ever “authenticated” his take on this subject or any other.

    Implied also, is that other non-duality teachers that have not spoken about “Amrita Nadi” are of a lesser understanding or are of the “Talking School”. Again, the argument is false based on the presumed “Authority” associated with “Amrita Nadi” (6th-7th Stage, arbritrary rankings). It is a Straw Man argument and implies nothing about other non-duality teachers; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It implies nothing in the end. Non Sequitur.

    The use of the “Straw Man” arguments presented here by some is of no surprise whatsoever. It was Franks chosen devise as was his ad hominem approach. The responses from current devotees are to be expected as they are learned from within the culture and are endemic in it. The use of straw man and ad hominem in this forum is an expression of fear and doubt in the guise of “conversation”. It closes down any real conversation, a daist trademark, and is condescending, smug, abusive and quite tragic. The people posting here, ex-daists or others critical of Frank, are expressing an understanding that came to them legitimately and at a dear price. “Find me out”…and so we have.

    ****”Let’s see, pick a direct relationship with Love-Bliss or my mind, body” ….**** Begs the question doesn’t it? A perfect example. This statement, posed as a question, is a condescending slap, a dismissal, of the very real observations and heart-felt understanding that so many ex-daists have come to. It is also the very familiar cultic “club” that so many have been hit over the head with. It is very telling.

    ****”If you do not RECOGNIZE Him as Acausal Reality by letting go all of this mind…****False conclusion/ blame,/dismissal/condescention. “If I could only let go of this “mind” I would recognize”. I did, and do, recognize Frank as he IS…a very screwed up man that has abused people mightily.

    **** And even if He was apparently wrong about something, so what? I just know that He did what He did to get our attention to notice His Freedom, His Love, His Heart, His Absolute Bliss and Consciousness as the Bright – to Stand out for our sake! To wake us up to our Reality! And if that offended our egos along the way, so be it! ****This is classic Frankapologetica. False conclusion/dismissal/lack of empathy. He was wrong and it does matter. It matters to me…it matters to all who have posted here. Your “knowledge” that he did anything for your, or anyones “sake” is unfounded. Yeah, you bought it…I bought it…so did others…doesn’t make it true and all the “evidence” is pointing in the other direction. Many of us have woken up to that reality…yes, out of a self imposed sleep…and can feel the sun on our face again. Come out into the light.
    ****”From a conventional standpoint, Adi Da “gave” us endless reasons to depart His Company”….**** Dismissive/condescending. I too once held the “unconventional” veiw of Frank. The “unconventional” veiw is what is required to stay in Adidam. No other “veiw” is accepted or tolerated. It is the very thing that allowed Frank to abuse so many. Once the seed of “conventional” understanding takes root however, a clarity sets in and the unraveling happens. This is a fire that is quite different than one might assume…it’s painful. It’s REAL. All of a sudden a statement like this; “The way that I teach is not who I am”. has a whole different sound. Frank could have said “I am not my shoe”…it’s meaningless. As something to hide behind it is useful. When you regain some clarity it’s meaningless.

    I’ve tried not to make this personal. IT IS. It is very personal. In one of my first posts I said that I still have friends in community. I feel for them. It’s personal.

    As to the queston of the “future” of Adidam…it was dying when I left 10 years ago. Stagnating. No REAL growth ( don’t believe the “stats”) No real joy. My own service in community was missionary/advocacy. During my time in this service there were less and less people interested, between the ever increasing “Capitolizations” and “pazooza” campaigns and even though Frank made himself more “available” to other “congregations”. The observations of these “public people” of the books and the community itself, despite the talk from the inside, was a good indicator of where the “church” is now. Add the internet into the mix and it doesn’t look good for Adidam. I have been in conversation with a friend still in community, 30+ years, that is realy going through it now as I did 10 years ago. He said…”it was my ‘investment’ that kept me in place and that’s what hurts the most”. I have tears in the telling of that. Understand it all too well. The heart commitment of this man to Frank was longstanding and very real. His hurt is unimaginable. I feel there will be more soon. Many more.

    Franks (and co-founder Sal) time in Scientology has been minimized and almost eradicated by the handlers inside Adidam. A study of the life and times of Hubbard and his “church” will reveal some startling similarities. Just recently there have been some defections ( Adidam call them “dissedents” ). These are high profile people. The actor Jason Behge and Marc Headley, an insider for a long time, are talking about their experiences. Marc Headley’ account is very striking ( see links ). Remove the name Adidam and replace it with Scientology. His accounts of the aren’t “similar”…they are an exact description of Adidam. Astounding. The “tecniques” are the same…identical. Anyone with a memory of the early years will see it immediately. There has been much said about Frank “borrowing” . He did. Everywhere from Shaivite to Christianity to Vedanta to Stranger From a Strage Land ( my favorite “borrowing”…too funny). His “teaching methods” are right out of Scientology, or, shall I say, he was “influenced” by the techniques. Anyway, if you are inclined to listen to these two men the links are below. You’ll be amazed and saddened if not angered.

    Jason Behge

    http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/jason-beghe-interview/

    Marc Headley

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/bc/glosslip/2008/04/25/Glosslip-From-Our-Lips-To-Your-Ears

    To all my friends still in community I wish you well. I fully appreciate where you’re at and have no need to change your choice. It is your own. Speaking out is mine.

    Feel4God I Feel4You

  235. shiva

    Feel4God:
    your lengthy non-reply just confirms what i stated: you are not able to shed your adidam-conditioning and listen.
    but i leave it up to conrad to respond, if he has the energy.

    maybe the happy face is just that: a constellation of planets that from one angle looks like a happy face.

    it is so typical for da-ists to feel the need to look for so-called signs of franks influence in nature. they posted a pic of a double rainbow in fiji lately (on adidams message network) as a sign of nature responding to frank.
    i saw double rainbows almost daily in melbourne – when it rained anyways. literally: almost daily.

    indeed: Feel4God i Feel4You

  236. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    For one, I’ll concede right off the bat that Adi Da has a genuine non-dual aspect to his teachigns. Adi Da certainly spoke and wrote at length about non-dual teachings, and the non-dual argument has always been at the heart of his teachings. On the other hand, the critics here are quite right that we can’t really call Adidam’s practicing path non-dual, in that most of what is taught in Adidam is clearly highly dualistic, and even contemptuous of non-dualism as some kind of “talking school” that is to be avoided at all costs. Generally, the living culture of Adidam fails badly at the non-dual test. Most people in Adidam aren’t much interested in non-dualism, and even seem suspicious or downright opposed to anyone who is. This is encouraged by the “seven stages” model, in which non-dualism is relegated to the sixth and seventh stages, and talking about it before that is considered “uppity” and even inappropriate. Rather, dualistic approaches, language, and concepts are considered far more appropriate, particularly the approach of dualistic devotionalism.

    This unfortunately makes for separative arguments that consider devotion to be in opposition to non-dualism, and vice-versa, which is simply not the case at all. The non-dual schools are highly devotional, they simply understand devotion to itself be non-dual. Worship of the Guru in non-dual schools is considered worship of one’s very Self, and is not made into some kind of objectified glorification of the Guru, but is understood to go beyond all such concepts and notions from the beginning. Nisargadatta, for example, performed a puja to his Guru every day of his life, long after his own realization, explaining that it meant nothing, it was just the fulfillment of a vow he had made to his Guru long ago.

    So while non-dual concepts are certainly a central part of Adidam’s teaching, they aren’t a central part of the culture he has created. Instead, a very dualistic approach is generally taken, based on dualistic forms of devotion, which is another source of the hostility towards non-dual critics of Adidam. Most Adidamers are of the mistaken notion that devotion and non-dualism are somehow enemies, whereas in reality they are two sides of the same coin, it is only the dualistic forms of devotion that are hostile to non-dualism, whereas true devotion is non-dual in nature and immediately recognizes non-dualism as central to its own existence. Guru-devotion is for them a non-dual process in which the Guru is found alive and active in the Self, not merely as some outer authority figure, and not objectified into the dualistic forms of body and mind. This is why Ramana, for example, refused to let people even bow down to him, or make him into some kind of formal Guru figure. He didn’t want people confusing his human form with the Divine Self, whereas obviously that was central to Adi Da’s own teaching and the practice he recommended.

    Regarding this Amrita Nadi matter, I think we both know why we are focusing on it. It’s because it’s one of the linchpins of Adi Da’s claim to be the “First, Last, and Only Seventh Stage Realizer”, the unique and only fully realized Guru ever, than which there will never be another. If it’s shown that this is hogwash, that Ramana clearly realized and mentioned this regenerated Amrita Nadi before Da, it makes him into a liar, or at least a guy who makes exagerrated megalomaniacal claims. That’s certainly not unprecedented, but it makes Da seem less of a reliable authority on anything, if his central claim is a false one. It’s kind of like Meher Baba and his claim to be the Avatar of the Age. I think most people who aren’t Meher Baba devotees would consider that claim to be nonsense, an exagerrated bit of puff, and it actually reduces Meher Baba’s credibility rather than enhances it. Adi Da mentioned that Meher Baba not only served the mast community, he was simply a devotional mast himself, and these kinds of claims were simply part of the kind of exagerrated, nonsensicalism that devotional masts were prone to.

    I’d interpret Adi Da’s FLO statements, and his exclusive claims to the Amrita Nadi realization, to be similarly the product of this “mast” phenomena. That Adi Da himself is simply a western example of a mast, a somehow aberrated mystical individual with high intuitions about spirituality mixed with all kinds of common, even neurotic craziness. His whole “crazy wisdom” expression seems to fit this model of the mast, even his endless books of increasingly incomprehensible jargon and capitalizations are simply the expression of a mast, not something we need to take terribly seriously on their own merits.

    Regarding Ramana, though you seem to be pulling back somewhat, you of course have indeed been saying Ramana’s realization is limited to the self-on-the-right, and does not include the regenerated Amrita Nadi. You claim that Ramana called himself a “Causal Guru”, when he simply called himself a “Karuna Guru”. You seem not to understand these traditional references, but impose some kind of Daist meanings upon these words. Just so you know, there is a system in India which describes the various kinds and levels of Guru, eight in all, and in that system the “Karuna Guru” is the highest level, defined as:

    “The KARUNA GURU — Who is able to confer the ability to merge into the Eternal Absolute (Brahma). Who can effect transformation of the human into divinity.”

    It’s only by trying to crudely fit traditional wisdom into Adidam conceptual categories that one confuses “Karuna Guru” with the Adidam concept of the “causal realm”. They aren’t in any sense the same. When Ramana used this term to describe himself, he was only saying that he was the highest kind of Guru, not that he was a Guru with some predilection for the causal realm.

    This is what I mean why I say that your criticism don’t seem to have any validity. They don’t even get off the ground, and require rather crude interpretations of grammar and symbolism, without any real understanding of the context involved, to even vaguely support your notion that Raman’s realization ws limited, either to the heart-on-the-right, or the causal dimension.

    Now, I would be quite glad to admit to you that I’m not a jnani, and that I’m not qualified to directly see or state who is realized and to what degree, Amrita Nadi or not. I wasn’t under the impression that we expected to acheive 100% certainty here, and if I have not made perfect arguments, well, I don’t think that’s much of a criticism. But I think the arguments I’ve presented are at least 90-95% certain, whereas yours just fall apart. And saying that we should all just defer to Adi Da because he is so wise and true, is kind of using the issue under debate as the basis for your argument, rather than its conclusion. I certainly don’t accept Adi Da’s judgment about these matters as authoritative in any sense. If you do, it certainly undercuts the very attempt to make a discriminating examination of the Adidam teachings, rather than as the lawbook to consult on such matters. I don’t object to your trying to discriminate between Ramana and this whole sixth and seventh stage argument of Adi Da’s, but if you are going to try to discriminate, for one you can’t argue that discrimination is somehow a false approach, and two, you can’t make arguments that don’t hold up, and then resort to Adi Da’s authority to artificially sustain them.

    Arguing from authority is a terrible mistake, as is arguing from emotion. Why is it that whenever Adidam people get cornered in some consideration, they start spouting emotional devotionalism in vague, poetic gibberish? I suppose it’s because they can then always claim that the other guy is somehow anti-emotion and anti-love, a generally inferior form of mind-based dead-end “rationalist”. Or it’s just a defense mechanism that springs up when the facade of Adidam infallibility begins to crumble. Rather than actually acknowledge an error in Adi Da’s teachings and views, the devotee throws up a smoke-screen of idealistic devotional claims, like a smoke screen of puppies and kittens that no one would dare criticize. Well, surprise surprise, we are not fooled.

    The reason this Amrita Nadi business is important is because it leaves a huge crack in the Adidam wall of denial. I think the evidence is pretty clear – Ramana had realized the regenerated Amrita Nadi, and even Da used to not only admit that, but use that as a way of confirming his own realization. What’s the explanation for the switch? Well, it’s not just a question of misinterpreting dharma, it’s a matter of a self-ish motivation on Da’s part to make himself seem unique, and everyone else inferior. Why would a truly realized being even consider such a motive, much less act on it? Why would he betray someone he considered his Guru, and responsible for his awakening to the highest state or realization? Well, it’s rather obvious when you realize that Da has an overwhelming need to be number one, unique, and perfect, as the result of his underlying emotional problems. So even his former Guru and final “enlightening agency” was thrown under the bus.

    There’s obviously no real case on the merits for Da’s position, and since your feel that Adi Da has direct knowledge of these things, you have to consider why he would distort these matters so wildly. So following this line of inquiry would lead to your being forced to seriously consider the possibility that Da is not the perfectly enlightened being he claims, but a rather oddball and distorted vessel the Self has used, as he uses all of us, to demonstrate something of how spiritual egos consume themselves. And since I’m sure you don’t even want to enter that neighborhood, this whole thing has to be short-circuited from the start. Which is why, I would suspect, you try to half-heartedly hold onto the notion that Da really is right, that Ramana somehow had a “preference” for the exclusive heart on the right, when all the evidence points in the opposite direction, unless you take things out of context and don’t look at the whole of Ramana’s teaching.

    For example, the “five reality teachings” of Adi Da’s are clearly lifted entirely from Advaitic teachings, which Adi Da says are limited to the sixth stage of life. And the five you quoted are, indeed, not descriptive of any ultimate and transcendent realization, but refer only to the Witness, which even Ramana clearly points to as a limited stage of maturity, and not ultimate realization at all. He in fact teaches that even the witness is an illusion, that there is no such thing, it is only at best a pointer to the direction of the Source of the mind, and that the witness is simply a dualistic experience that is at the base of our delusional mind-forms. It is merely an aspect of the “I”-thought, which must be penetrated and undone. So one could say that Da’s five reality teachings are just limited and exclusive signs of his failed realization. I don’t think that would quite be fair, because they are not meant, I gather, to be ultimate, but merely a recommendation for practitioners at a certain stage of the process. Well, similar things are true of Ramana’s teachings. He didn’t tell people to practice some duplication of the ultimate realization, he simply told them to investigate and find out what was true about themselves, leaving it open-ended as to what one would find. This certainly involves some kind of inversion, but guess what, so does Da’s method. Being the witness also involves a certain degree of inversion, and Da has even described a meditative exercise of withdrawing all one’s energies into the heart on the right, meditating on a current of bliss there, prior to full realization.

    The truth is, non-dual realization is simply indescribable and incomprehensible. It has always been described as such. Creating conceptual pigeon-holes like the seven stages of life, these yogic descriptions of Amrita Nadi, and various conceptual fascinations about it all simply obscures the actual process of direct knowledge that goes beyond the mind, which is all that Ramana and Advaita have ever tried to point to. If you had ever had anything like a real “intuition” of Amrita Nadi, you would know that it is incomprehensible, that it has nothing to do with the heart, the head, or some current between the two. The heart and the head arise within the Amrita Nadi – and even that is a delusional picture that at best symbolically and in yogic language tries to approximate these matters. This is why Ramana didn’t like to talk much about it, because it simply can’t be reduced to such a description without being badly distorted in the process.

    Papaji used to say that there was a great danger of developing a highly structured conceptual understanding of enlightenment, because the mind that convinced itself that this is the way the process works would also be able to spontaneously re-create those experiences, and convince the individual that they were enlightened, because here they were having all these classic experiences described in the books. This is how he explained the phenomena of people claiming to be “awake”, when he could see that no such thing had occurred, that their minds had merely created an experience that corresponded to the mind’s already fixed notion of enlightenment. Adi Da read Ramana in the final years before his own so-called “enlightenment”, and I think it’s a fair criticism to suggest that his mind simply re-created what he had read about, including this description of Amrita Nadi that is found in Ramana’s teachings, because his desire for enlightenment was so great. As the years went by, Adi Da’s mind continued to create all kinds of fascinating phenomena, and mystical teachings, and all kinds of conceptual descriptions, because he just has that kind of overflowing mental capacity. It created the “experience” of being the FLO, of being the only, the greatest, the perfect, the unique, the complete Divine Package. Well, pardon us if we don’t find that very convincing. Not only is it pretty clear that he simply borrowed most of these ideas from Ramana and Advaita, it’s also pretty clear that his mind distorted them and abused them in the process, and ended up turning them into a corrupt, ego-filled version of their original purity.

    I take no pleasure in saying that, in that I myself was complicit for many years in believing and perpetuating these notions of Adi Da’s. It’s important, however, to break free of our delusions, and to move beyond them, past the concepts and symbols of enlightenment to the real thing. Non-dual teachings are themselves merely concepts and symbols, and they change and develop over time. There is nothing sacred about these descriptions, and many realizers don’t describe realization in the same terms because the terms themselves are not inherent to the actual realization, which transcends all such concepts. Non-dual teachings are there for the mind of the aspirant, but that mind must be undone, rather than trained to believe in these concepts. The mind undone in realization has no concept of Amrita Nadi, it has no concept of the chakras, the body, the heart, anything like that. When the ego has died, so does all its content. And everything we experience is mere “content”, empty in and of itself. There is only the Self, only God.

    Again, I don’t consider it wrong of you to believe in Da and his self-descriptions. I know it would be very hard to admit there’s anything wrong with the picture he has painted, and it might even be a detriment to your spiritual practice to lose faith in him. I don’t want to destroy anyone’s faith in Adi Da. People believe in all kinds of things that I might consider deluded. There’s millions of Mormons out there, and I’m not suggesting they all declare Joeseph Smith a fraud and leave their church. Faith is important, even if the objects of our faith, the intermediaries we have empowered as embodiments of our faith, are less than stellar. This is why Ramana didn’t much like to criticize other Gurus, or if someone already had some spiritual practice they were happy with, he would simply bless them, and not try to get them to practice self-enquiry instead. If Adidam is your life-practice, God bless you in that. At least Adidam has some relationship to the real process of non-dual realization, even if a distorted one. In this world, you’re always going to get distortions anyway, and how we work out our own salvation is up to us. Ramana’s teachings aren’t perfect either, which is why he preferred silence. So I will leave the rest to silence, (unless something stirs my mind once more here) and let you get on with the process in your own way, in your own time, as I will with mine.

  237. Clara Llum

    1. There is only God, ergo God operated through Adi Da, as Adi Da. As well, as He/She/It operates through, and as, everything and everyone else.

    2. Adi Da’s doctrines about realization’s “stages” might be right or might be wrong. Either the case, still: an unshaken devotional relationship with him worked for some people, as well as the breaking of such one relationship with him is what worked for some other people.

    3. Adi Da was maybe realized or maybe he was not, or he was, just to some degree. Yet his ministry was still God’s work alone. Like anything else is God’s work alone.

    4. Bhakti Yoga may result in total “outshining” of the devotee, that is, in nondual realization, where only the Guru remains as everything-and-all, including the being-ness of the devotee’s being.

    5. Bhakti Yoga’s ultimate (or possible) nondual realization may work even when the object of Bhakti is a false guru; since What remains after total abnegation of the false/limited self is the True/Universal Self, the One Self (Which in the [devotional] process was projected on the [false or not] guru’s form).

    6. Adi Da’s apparent (and definite, from a conventional p.o.v.) misbehaviours might have been Leelas of a Divine Avatara, or might have been compulsions of a narcissistic megalomaniac guy. Either the case, still: God operated through them, and was the real owner of Adi Da’s form, like He/She/It operates through all apparent events, and owns all forms.

    Namaste.

    This thread is superb and I enjoyed each and every contribution, from both “sides”. Wonderful insights from the nondualistic camp. Incredible demonstrations of surrender from the bhakta camp.

    Every One’s “hour” of Home hitting is divinely ordered Any Way.

    Much Love

    Clara Llum

    note: upper case letters are used only as a wink to Da’s style

  238. Stevie in Wonderland

    Feel4 god writes…

    “Just look at Adi Da’s picture – any picture you like – there is no ego there! You are so stuck in your need to have your Guru and this process look a certain way, that you now blame Adi Da’s full consideration of all stages of development a distraction to you? How oedipal! How silly!”

    “Oedipal” now!

    “Adolescent” yesterday.

    “Self-guru-ing” the day before….

    Hey dude that’s the whole point…

    Everybody ex-devotee was/is be-littled and put-down…

    Always a cutting, hurting NASTY sound-bite to

    put down other free-er individuals p.o.v….

    “Methinks she prosteth too much…” (W.S.)

    Why?

    Why, do you need to put down all other p.o.v.

    so much?

    “Those who love me in open, have hidden doubts…” (DFJ)

    mmmmmm????

    Yet, somehow you “the only god-lover’s” NEVER see the

    schizophrenic mind in this…

    and I guess you never will…

    unless, you do…

    the “punch and judy” goes on…and on…and on…

    Be the great vehicle and shine!

    Reveal the truth of your great Sat-guru’s Blessing!

    And.. puhleeze, being able to tell

    a persons development by “looking at a photo”????

    (you know Osama Bin Laden looks cool to me!)

    Teenager’s get off on the latest pop-idol photo!!!!

    You can magically discern a person’s level of realization

    from a photo????

    Wow!

    You really have developed siddhi’s over in Adidam!!

    I think you need a gig on the Jay Leno show, dude!

    But, sadly…

    “there is a great gulf between Adidam and its critics, precisely because Adi Da never faced up to criticism in his entire life. He always denied it, ignored it, ran away from it, or protected himself from it. Once he had his own ashram, he simply edited it all out, and prevented any criticism from even being voiced to him. We all know what that produced in Adidam, an Alice-In-Wonderland world where only “good news” could get through to him” :Conradg.

    and..

    Feel4god, again:

    “Let’s see, pick a direct relationship with Love-Bliss or my mind, body ….”

    I’ll have all 3 please!

    And wasn’t that DFJ’s Way too?

    love, peace, happiness..

    (and Intelligence)

    Stevie….who fell out of “Wonderland”.

    (god, I am so glad you can’t see my photo!, dude!)

  239. Feel4God

    Slyder, you probably haven’t read some of my posts (I know they are long) but Adi Da actually opened the heart on the right side the first moment I met Him. It was not something I would ever even anticipate. I could see He is the Reality of Love-Bliss and I was home – that same Ruchira Shaktipat has always been the case under all circumstances with Him.

    I don’t mean to be sounding condescending when I say to compare an image of myself (or yourself) with that of one’s Master. It actually does remind me of why I practice. Ego is completely evident in anyone that is egoic – that is why in my very first post here, I asked the critics of Adi Da (or of any great Master) to post their picture so we can get a sense of their actual state of realization for ourselves. Really, why should I blindly trust what an ego says here about Adi Da given my experience – especially if I cannot see their eyes and feel their heart?

    So Slyder, what is your understanding of non-duality? Are you an actual realizer of the truth of non-dualism, free of the body-mind, of the illusory ego?

    And thanks – I Feel4u2!

    shiva Says:
    “your lengthy non-reply just confirms what i stated: you are not able to shed your adidam-conditioning and listen. ”

    Hahahaha!!! And this is a “reply”? This is what I called “critic conditioning” – you don’t even respond to a single statement of mine but instead “summarily dismiss” it ALL – because I am a Daist. Being more specific is necessary for an actual consideration to continue, shiva.

    And just to be clear, I think that Happy Face is very humorous and mysterious psycho-physics – just like on His Birthday, those same three planets were in a Grand Trine. Conradg knows what I am talking about.

    I am sure various people thought the spectacular “shooting star” at Sri Ramana’s Mahasamadhi was also just a shooting star.

    And you Feel4me too! Of course, I Feel4u2!

  240. Freaked Out!

    Was anyone else as freaked out as I was when I saw the photo of Adi Da draped in orange on the “adidacloseup” page?

    I thought for sure it was his “Not So Living Murti” but thank God it wasn’t, it was from earlier in the year. And yet he looks like a corpse in that photo from my POV!!

  241. atiasrama

    Feel4God is curious about our photos, as if that will reveal anything, but I realized having a facebook account might help Adidam update its old Dawn Horse Communion files on old members like me by posting this:

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=505591021

    I really gave those guys a very poor picture, way back then. This one is better because a really good photographer at this May 2007 sign making party (for Obama’s first Reno rally) took it.

    When I was going to college (Humboldt State) way back in the early 70s, I remember overhearing this odd conversation. One guy was insisting to another that “you can TELL this guy is enlightened by looking at his picture!” Well….it’s my experience that when clearly abiding in that nothing is happening place, everyone seems to shine as a jnani. And, that’s here in Reno, where there sure are a lot of funny looking people.

    BTW, Feel4God, take a look at my ears!! I do believe I’ve seen really big ones like that on Buddha statues.

  242. Eddie B

    WHAT NOW MY LOVE?
    (now that it’s over)

    “As long as there is something left to defend, something with
    which to resist, as long as there is something still left to die,
    the same state persists, the same suffering, the same search.”

    Franklin Jones in The Method of the Siddhas, p.12, The Dawn Horse Press, Los Angeles, 1973.

    With the passing away of Adi Da it’s time for many of us who had a relationship with him to re-evaluate our lives and intentions without the parental deity. The person who towered over us for the past 35 years is gone and the requirement for integrity in all matters relative to Adidam (and the Truth altogether) is now as critical as it ever has been. If we do not respond honestly the significance of Adi Da’s life and teaching will be lost (or at least severely diminished) by the common deeds of sycophantic cultists, in a similar way to that seen after the death of most spiritual teachers. Moreover we will remain as children forever playing in the sandpit, all the while imagining we have matured as adults in God’s Domain.

    At the risk of boring others with seemingly superfluous and gratuitous information, I must first state my place in all of this. I do so because, primarily, I find no value in assessing anything without identifying where I am coming from. The two are inseparable and I am implicated in everything that seems to be outside myself, including the evaluation of a teacher, his teaching and the community of his devotees.

    I came across Adi Da in 1990 and became a devotee soon after. In the 7 years I was a formal devotee I lived in the hub of Adidam in Melbourne and Sydney and was the Australian Mission Manager for 2 or 3 of those years. The pinnacle of my time as a devotee was a 2-month retreat at The Mountain of Attention in 1995. I sat with Adi Da in meditation in the Manner of Flowers on dozens of occasions and I participated in many darshan incidents including chanting and celebratory events.

    The retreat was both wonderful and difficult. On the many occasions when Adi Da looked me straight in the eye I felt as if the eyes of God were looking into me. I did not want him to ever look away. On the other hand, I was on retreat as a ‘delegate’ representing the Australian community and the pressure of responding to his continual demands via extensive communications tested me to the limit. The requirement to remain present was as difficult for me during the more formal occasions as they were during the weeks of celebrations with beer, cigarettes and spaghetti bolognaise. I returned to Australia elated and exhausted.

    I left Adidam around 1999 because I felt my desire for free enquiry and expression was constantly being undermined by fundamentalists under the guise of guru devotion. (For a comprehensive examination of why I left Adidam download my essay ‘Leaving Adidam’ at http://home.exetel.com.au/eddieblatt/writer/Leaving%20Adidam.doc) I only got to see the full extent of the cultic nature of my participation after I had left and encountered other ‘spiritual’ groups with remarkably similar qualities. That Adi Da himself constantly criticized the community as being cultish was a sign both of our commitment to juvenile cultism and his inability (or reluctance) to diminish or eradicate its pervasiveness. I played my part in all of it perfectly. I was a cultist writ large.

    Departure from Adidam was swift and unproblematic and I am not aware of any ill-feelings devotees might harbor towards me. I have no anger or resentment towards Adi Da or those who remained (or continue to remain) in the community. On the contrary, hardly a day goes by where an ordinary (or extraordinary) event does not evoke feelings of gratitude. Even my intimate partner, who had never heard of Adi Da prior to meeting me, and who remains mostly unaware of the depth of his wisdom, has thanked him for his influence in our lives.

    Adi Da has left his mark in my heart that requires no authentication from an outside source. And herein lies what I consider to be at the core of the continuing childish disposition of devotees in general. We felt the guru had something we didn’t, and in order to acquire that ‘thing’ (be it some presumed realization or even just to be in his company) we submitted ourselves to a cultural hierarchy of cultic enthusiasts – the blind leading the blind.

    As long as we presumed reality or God to be elsewhere and not our inherent condition, then nothing Adi Da (or anyone else) did or represented could prevent the continuation of childish endeavors. This of course does not mean that gurus are of no value. On the contrary, I consider Adi Da to have had the single greatest effect in shifting me from a stifling commitment to scientific materialism. Since leaving Adidam, however, I have encountered others who have inspired me to relinquish the reliance on all teachings and all teachers as well. Or as they say in the Zen tradition, ‘If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him.’

    Attachment to the guru and the defense of Adidam itself (i.e., the institution, its artifacts and Adi Da himself under the guise of ‘protecting’ him), are the self-contraction at work. The difference between when I was a formal devotee and my current state of understanding is that in the former times I saw defending Adidam as spiritually legitimate, whereas now it feels like just plain old suffering. I believe Adi Da called it ‘the avoidance of relationship’!

    It’s a mystery as to how this shift transpired. What I can say, though, is that now that it has happened, my previous situation seems a form of insanity. Even my response to his teaching is vastly different these days. In the past, reading his books would simply reinforce what I presumed I had understood. Now the words engender newer and far deeper recognition of the Truth and the nature of my past relationship with Adi Da. Thus the passage:

    ‘The crisis begins to come on. You don’t really have a path anymore. You may talk a lot about it. It remains a part of your mind, but you don’t really have a path any longer. That is really the most hopeful sign.’

    now reveals the way I related Adi Da to be the same futile path as any other.

    Adidam is a singularly unattractive proposition for those who cannot abide by the relinquishment of personal honesty and integrity, and for those who are sensitized to the degree of the community’s cultic nature. Can one be a formal devotee in Adidam (or a member of any ‘spiritual’ organization) and not be a cultist? Perhaps, but I have yet to find such a culture, and it is likely that in order to be absolutely honest at all times one cannot be enmeshed in a ‘spiritual’ community. I know I can no longer be a part of Adidam as a ‘formal’ devotee because that culture prohibits, or at the very least severely restricts free enquiry. I am not capable of conforming to anything anymore that does not feel true just to get some perceived benefit, such as going on retreat with Adi Da, or to maintain a false civility within the community.

    I feel very much alone, but not lonely; incredibly grateful to Adi Da but not sycophantic; incapable of suppressing free expression but willing to listen to others who challenge me; unable to refer to an outside source for wisdom, but ‘suspicious’ of any exclusive source within; disinterested in joining any ‘spiritual’ community and/or worshipping a guru but see the value in doing so.

    In short, everything is exactly as it should be.

  243. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    Just when I think I can get away from this discussion, you keep pulling me back! Is this a scene from the Godfather, or what? Some people never let you leave the mafia, they insist that you must be loyal to the Don always, and breaking Omerta is the cardinal sin. Like I’m at all surprised that you would play the “oedipal” card. Jeez, guy, you don’t think I went through enough of that crap in Adidam, I have to sit through it here too?

    This is just too hilarious. I can’t speak for anyone but myself, either, so kindly stop suggesting that I should police other critics of Da. Again, when your arguments fail, you resort to either arguments from authority or ad hominem. Honestly, what does it matter if I’m the worst kind of fool in the world, if the arguments I’ve presented here carry weight? You say that my arguments have failed, but have they really? I don’t see people flocking to Adidam.

    Instead I see precisely the kind of arguments I’ve made here winning hands down in the overall discussion of Adidam where it counts, meaning outside of Adidam. I see Adidam failing miserably at convincing people of the truth of their arguments, and I don’t see you reversing that here. Quite the contrary, you are simply confirming the same problems everyone has seen in Adidam from the outset. You can argue that you are still right, that everyone else is wrong, but you can’t argue that you are winning and I am losing. Not if you actually do care about Adidam gaining any traction and respect in the wider world, which was a major objective of Adi Da’s efforts in recent years.

    I know these arguments don’t care much weight inside Adidam. People in Adidam don’t even read this sort of criticism, but nonetheless, over the years many end up coming to similar conclusions, and leaving. I certainly did. You can disparage me all you like as lacking a “real” understanding of Adidam, but it’s hard to back that up. Adi Da certainly didn’t seem to think so. I recall a time when he said that I was the only devotee in Adidam who was actually practicing in direct relationship to him. Now, maybe that’s bullshit, he said all kinds of things that weren’t true, but pretending that I don’t know anything about the “real” Adidam is just not very credible.

    I recall the RSO ladies sending me in to the high level meetings of the Samrajaya to “straighten them out”, which was utterly hilarious to begin with, and I knew it was silly even before I went in the room. What I found was people utterly obsessed with all the most mundane elements of their practice, the main feature of which at that time was finding a suitable bed for Adi Da to sleep on, and him acting like the Princess and the Pea, rejecting every bed they brought to him. These people were not talking about how to realize the non-dual truth. They were completely out of their minds trying to satisfy Adi Da’s material requirements.

    And that’s how the inner circle around Da are for the most part. Yes, you can certainly point to many periods when Adi spoke about realization, had non-dual considerations, wrote books, but the nitty gritty day to day service to him was all about “stuff”. I can’t believe the nonsense people used to tell me, their fears about the dark forces, the ego. I remember carrying Adi Da’s personal, very expensive dishware to the Manner for some celebration meal, and the serving ladies walking next to me warning not to drop and break it, or I would suffer untold bad karmas in all future lifetimes. I almost threw it down the hillside, just to see how she’d respond.

    Now, maybe you think those are “complaints”, but honestly, I don’t feel it that way. They are just funny stories about the silly things that have always gone on in Adidam. I don’t blame Adidam for this stuff, it’s just what it was. I don’t feel like any of that stuff hurt me, I feel quite the opposite, that it helped liberate me from all my beliefs about Adi Da. It doesn’t reflect all that well on Adi Da, I suppose, that he was telling his serving ladies that they should be terrified of bad karmas for breaking his dishes, or the time where he accused one of his serving ladies of producing conflict in the middle east because she got an ugly haircut that was displeasing to him. I mean, things like that are precious, you just can’t make this stuff up.

    I’m not complaining, nor am I holding onto some “image” of how a realizer has to be. But I’m not so naive as to believe this means that anyone who claims to be a great realizer is one, and that we can’t examine their lives and teachigns to see if they actually live up to those claims. I don’t think anyone has to live like Ramana – even his enlightened devotees didn’t live that way. Papaji was a sexually active householder with children, for example, and a working man who kept up at various jobs for at least 20+ years after his enlightenment.

    If you want a list of Ramana’s enlightened human devotees (there were proportedly four animals he enlightened as well, including Lakshmi the cow), I’d start with:

    Annamalai Swami
    Poonja Swami (Papaji)
    Sri Muruganar
    Sadhu Om
    Ramana’s Mother (at her death)
    Lakshmana Swami
    Mastan (a muslim devotee)
    Swami Ram Das
    Sri Matha

    And that’s just off the top of my head. There were undoubtedly more, these are just some of the most prominent examples. It’s not a huge number, and perhaps its unfair to Da, in that he never seemed to attract many serious people to begin with (I include myself there, unfortunately), so it’s not really a surprise that none became realized in his community. But then again, not being able to attract serious people isn’t a good sign either.

    The point is, Ramana attracted many serious people because it was clear that he was serious himself, not just by calling himself serious, but by not doing much anything else, or talking about much else. Whereas I can’t imagine why anyone who was truly serious about realization joining Adidam, it’s like running off to join the spiritual circus, it’s not really a serious place for genuine practice. My own lack of seriousness is precisely what made Adidam attractive to me, and the same is true of most people I knew there. Da frequently said as much himself. But rather than close down the whole thing and just cater to the truly serious, Da was too attached to all the money, all the service, all the luxuries he could afford by keeping things as they were. He needed those millions of dollars, the Swiss bank accounts, the luxury accomodations, the women, the whole shebang. We in Adidam all knew this, and spoke about it frequently. It was part of the regular notes cycle. So what’s wrong with stating it openly?

    As for Da not allowing a fixed image of him, this was certainly part of his game in the early days, when he was constantly “shape-shifting”. But this only added to the uber-mystique about him being above and beyond it all, some kind of great Trickster who could do whatever he liked, and it wouldn’t ever create any real “contradiction”. And that became his “image” in Adidam, the man who is above and beyond it all, who can do whatever he likes, who is perfect, errorless, the supreme authority, etc. This is an image of its own, and not even a terribly unique one. It’s Big Brother, in spiritual garb. And likewise, rather boring and not very attractive outside the authoritative world of Adidam. Which is why Adidam doesn’t grow. Defending that, or denying it, just doesn’t change the overwhelming widespread turn-off that is Adidam’s most serious problem.

    Now, you’re right that I’m probably getting a bit more blunt about things as this dialog has gone on. I’m not here to dance on Adi Da’s grave, or rain on your mourning period. So maybe I really should just stop here. If you think I’m just being unduly negative, fine, write me off as just another failed devotee who couldn’t appreciate “the truth” about Adi Da. But the basic fact remains that Adi Da and his community have not aroused much in the way of positive impressions around the world of those interested in spiritual matters, and there are plenty of good, sound, and reasonable explanations that don’t require us to presume some conspiracy of egos trying to undermine the work of God in this world. Adidam has plenty of egos of its own who have done that, including Adi Da himself.

    Now, I know you look at pictures of Adi Da, and see no ego there, but you must understand that’s hardly proof of anything. Pictures don’t have egos, as you must know. Even Da himself taught that the ego is an activity, not a “thing”. So I would suggest that instead of looking for a “thing” we might call “ego” in his photographs, look at his actions, and the overall pattern of his life. I think in that context, of action, you can certainly find plenty of ego in Adi Da, as have most around him. As I mentioned, his own daughter told me she saw him display ego all the time, it’s not really that unusual an observation. If you don’t see ego in him, it’s only because you aren’t looking at his actions, but only at an image you have in your mind. I think Da used to call that the “fourth stage error”. Well, sometimes these criticism bite one on the ass.

    And really, enough already, don’t you think?

  244. Conradg

    Shiva, I’ve really enjoyed your posts. I don’t know who you are, but I probably do know you. Someone mentioned you might be Steve B., and if so, more power to ya. (I didn’t even know Steve B was on the outs). I second all the things you said, including the warning that I’m not going to “get through” to Feel4God or others here.

    You are quite right, I just practice the Bhagavad Gita attitude of acting without any expectation of any results accruing. I’m pretty certain no results will accrue from these dialogs, but that’s no reason not to engage them to some degree. Truth will out. And practically speaking, even if no one in Adidam takes these words of ours seriously, but just reacts and dismisses us, plenty of others whose minds are not quite so closed down will refer to this dialog in the future, I think it will stand as a kind of testimonial to Adidam’s legacy in many ways. There’s been plenty of intelligent consideration on both sides, but I think the general impression it leaves won’t be much to Adidam’s liking.

    I’m sorry that you, and especially your wife, are getting some pressure from the mahas out there. I know that drill well. My wife is still emotionally attached to Da, but hadn’t been allowed to participate for years because of me. Really, it’s been better for her, helped her to see what kind of people these guys are.

    Funny, they called up the other day and invited us to some local event commemorating Da’s Mahasamadhi. I wasn’t sure if I should go, but I decided to just honor my personal relationship with Da and lay some flowers at his feet. I could have left after a few minures, really. I walk into this hall he used to work in a lot, so it had some personal connection to him, offered a flower, and instantly I felt him, the whole personal relationship, very directly. He was just laughing. He was making it clear to me that he found the whole scene really hilarious, the whole Mahasamadhi silliness, the whole Adidam scene altogether, the seriousness of it, the mourning of devotees, and most particulary my being there. He seemed to find it just plain funny that I was there. In fact, he seemed to enjoy my being there, because I hadn’t come to get anything from him. I wasn’t there to mourn, or experience anything at all, and he kind of liked that, and made that much clear to me. After that, well, let’s just say it wasn’t very inspiring is all. But I enjoyed that little bit of personal contact and humor, it was in keeping with the relationship I had with Da, and that was great. But all in all, my only purpose in this whole thing is to give it all away and be done with it. The past really is past. It’s just sometimes fun to talk about the past, but I’ve probably overdone that already. Good luck to you, and maybe our paths will cross again someday. You can always email me at conradg@gmail.com.

  245. shiva

    Feel4God said:
    shiva Says:
    “your lengthy non-reply just confirms what i stated: you are not able to shed your adidam-conditioning and listen. ”

    Hahahaha!!! And this is a “reply”?

    i’m sorry Feel4God that is all i could muster in the light of your non-argumentation here. (i am surprised at conrads patience with you). looking at a person’s picture and concluding solely from that pic that the person might be a jnani but that you still feel “a very subtle kind of concentration in him”. wow. that was just awesome. and in the amrita-nadi discussion here many points were clearly made but consistently ignored by you. so, my point stands: “you are not able to shed your adidam-conditioning and listen.”

  246. Eddie B

    What I have come to recognize (and suppressed in fear of being derided by members of Adidam and others) is that there is no absolute contradiction between different ‘spiritual’ endeavors and there is no source of wisdom outside of myself. No doubt I will be deemed a heretic in Adidam and a fool by others. Who was it that said one must lose face in order to realize God?

    The argumentation beginning to appear on this blog is typical of those wanting to have one aspect of duality win over its opposite. It’s likely to continue into noticeable defensiveness, then outright abuse. It always does. People who fearfully defend anything end up angry when challenged by others. What is the mechanism underlying this defending? Is it the result of a great and free love for something worth protecting or is it because of the fear of the implications of being wrong about something? No one can decide this for another.

    With regard to Adidam and the rest of us, the usual styles of contentiousness are appearing on both sides of the illusory divide. Adi Da said this, no, he said that. Adi Da meant this, no he meant that. Is Adi Da the greatest realizer or is Ramana? Always the pitting of one against the other. As if we really knew anyway.

    Devotees of Adi Da live in platitudes and do not live the life of Humor Adi Da supposedly came to incarnate in this world. Freedom has no binding perspectives or points-of-view needing defense. In any case, any point-of-view or belief always has a bottom-line presumption that evaporates when the light of real enquiry is shined on it. Those who maintain a system based on a set of presumptions (like Adidam and every other spiritual organization) have simply not enquired deep enough. And those who ignore such enquiry because they are bhaktis full of ‘faith’, do not fully appreciate the real value of discriminatory precision.

    How Adi Da behaved in the name of a liberator, and what devotees do in the names of devotion and spiritual endeavor, are legitimate topics for scrutiny and investigation, as are discovering the underlying motives for why many of us left Adidam. I don’t often do either anymore because…. well, I guess I would rather watch the football. But then again, here I am in front of the computer typing out my point of view to add to the malaise. I guess I will never learn.

  247. NC

    Okay, okay, I’m back…dammit I’m hooked but I’m feeling better. Here’s my self portrait.
    From Drop Box

    So, I’m not enlightened, or am I

  248. Feel4God

    Conradg Says:
    “Just when I think I can get away from this discussion, you keep pulling me back! Is this a scene from the Godfather, or what? ”

    Hahahahahaha! No, no pressure from me. I never knew any of this went on with you. I was not involved in the people politics/culture of Adidam.

    Wait a minute! You are the one who reverted back to the debate again – so I did too. Fortunately, you restated everything you already presented so there is little I feel I need to reiterate back. But I do appreciate your consideration and also your criticism of myself in the midst of this too – there is always room for further self-understanding and self-transcendence.

    Conradg Says:
    “Like I’m at all surprised that you would play the “oedipal” card. Jeez, guy, you don’t think I went through enough of that crap in Adidam, I have to sit through it here too?”

    I had no idea – I should have guessed it though. I just saw you being angry about your relationships in Adidam in some of your posts so what’s a little oedipal feedback between friends? ;) I am sorry to hear that you had so much difficulty serving so close in – but I cannot presume that any of this didn’t grow us in some kind of way back then – at least it resulted in my having to grow up more quickly than I would have otherwise.

    Conradg Says:
    “Pictures don’t have egos, as you must know. Even Da himself taught that the ego is an activity, not a “thing”.”

    At the moment that a picture is being taken, the activity that is ego is still apparent in its effects on the face, in the eyes, the being, really the whole body-mind – this can be seen-felt-intuited from the heart. Even from a photo, it is often very obvious where someone is contracted as self – i.e., where they tend to “reside”. In Adi Da I see there is no self (activity) present – it is patently obvious. And all those pictures of Ramana Maharshi are so beautiful because they are selfless. So I don’t understand the logic of your comment.

    Unfortunately, you do seem to take little of what I respond back to you into account throughout this whole debate – perhaps because you feel (and seem to be) more scholarly superior, but also I think you selectively ignore things. Of course, that happens in a debate, but I actually wished that this had been more of a real dharma consideration rather than a debate between an ex-Daist and a Daist. Also, having to type everything up, is a real pain and slows down everything and makes skipping things more likely; not to mention the limitations of the blog format.

    Please understand that I have no problem with any of this consideration, and I hope that you at least inspect how much mind and emotion you seem to have wrapped up in this issue, just as I will inspect my mental presumptions more deeply. This certainly has resulted in my studying a bunch more – both from Adi Da and Ramana.

    However, I still have found nothing that you have presented or that I have studied that undercuts what Adi Da has said about Ramana Maharshi. I have carefully read both His and your arguments openly – and what He says makes way more sense to me, and also intuitively rings true to me. His samyama is far deeper and gets to the real heart of the matter.

    And really, if it were not for Adi Da’s detailed descriptions of Atma Nadi, the heart on the right, etc., etc., much of Ramana’s Teachings would be far less understandable, in my opinion. You even said you did not understand Ramana Maharshi’s Teachings at first – only after being with Adi Da could you.

    For me, my relationship to Adi Da is based in inherent beholding, trust, and love, not any mental logic or belief – so nothing about the body-mind or arising whatevers, really threaten the core relationship. At death what good is mental logic and belief anyway? If I lost my mind today – which is possible after these debates – I would still have my devotional relationship with my Master.

    I also see your list of enlightened devotees, but my understanding was that only Ramana’s dying mother was declared enlightened by him – and Lakshmi the cow. So the rest were enlightened after His Passing. Not that that can’t happen – but if it does in Adidam I can imagine what the critics will be saying!

    Regarding my mentioning of Karuna Guru = Causal Guru – that was straight out of a Ramana book that I think Former Follower posted from. I just copied his quote.

    Personally, the way I see it is Bhagavan Adi Da and Sri Ramana Maharshi have and had different Functions – and it is a total win-win for all of us. Adi Da is very obviously God-Realized, and so is Ramana. Their Teachings embrace devotion and non-dualism, and inspire many many people to transcend egoity in God. What could be greater than that?

    Conradg Says:
    “And really, enough already, don’t you think?”

    Definitely – I will end with this very relevant section from Adi Da Samraj’s Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga book (which is published) that address both the prelimary Perfect Knowledge practice you questioned and what Adi Da has recently written about Atma Nadi – I thought you might appreciate this as a parting gift. It also has a section on Ramana Maharshi, but I think I will skip that since this debate is more than over from my standpoint too! Take care Conrad.

    From Adi Da Samraj’s Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga:

    The characteristic mature demonstration of the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice is the searchless Beholding of Me.

    The preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice is not an exercise of dissociative introversion based on My preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” Teaching.

    Rather, the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice is the searchless, tacit recognition of the Self-Evident Truth of My “Pefect Knowledge” Revelation.

    To rightly practice the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice is to tacitly responsively Listen to Me in the Priorly Established Stand of moment to moment whole bodily turning to Me and right-life obedience to Me – and, Thus and Thereby, to Tacitly Stand in the Never-“objectified” Witness Position of Consciousness Itself.

    I Am Standing Infinitely Above the body-mind – in My Self-Existing Self-Radiance.

    I Stand here As the “Root”-Current of Transcendental Spiritual Love-Bliss (or Atma Nadi), Shining from the right side of the bodily apparent heart.

    The “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam Is the Way of the “Regenerated” Atma Nadi (the “Root”-Current of Transcendental Spiritual Love-Bliss) – simply As the “Root”-Form, and As the Acausal Self-Condition and Source Condition of conditional appearances, and Always Already (and, thus, searchlessly, and not merely strategically, or eventually, or conditionally) Self-Established As “Perfect Knowledge” of the Intrinisically egoless Self-Nature, Self-Condition, and Self-State That Is Divine Conscious Light Itself.

    In the “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam, there is no turning toward “self” and no turning away from “not-self”.

    In the “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam, the practice of “Perfect Knowledge” (both in its preliminary form and as a mature Transcendental Spiritual “Perfect Practice”) is not about the search to dissociatively introvert upon the interior “subjective” (or strategically psycho-physically introverted) “Source” of the strategically (and, necessarily, egoically) presumed “I-object” (or any other “object” of ego-“I”) – but, rather, it is the Always Prior (and Intrinsically egoless) practice of tacitly and searchlessly and Always Already Self-Abiding As the Self-Evident Self-Nautre, Self-Condition, and Self-State That Is (Always Already) Not-an-“object”.

    My Ruchira Shaktipat Has Its Own Intrinisc (and Perfectly Acausal) Purpose and Sign.

    My Ruchira Shaktipat Is My Transcendental Spiritual Transmission in the Form of (and by Means of) Atma Nadi.

    The Source of My Ruchira Shaktipat is not in the body-mind-“self”.

    The Source of My Ruchira Shaktipat is not anywhere in the conditionally manifested cosmos.

    Rather, My Ruchira Shaktipat Is the Intrinsic Self-Radiance of the Divine Self-Nature, Self-Condition, and Self-State of Reality Itself – Which Is My Own Divine Person.

    Therefore, the Self-Evidence of My Ruchira Shaktipat Acausally Self-Manifests As Self-Awakening in Atma Nadi – not as any development in the Circle, or as any development in any of the structures (gross, subtle, or causal) of the body-mind-complex.

    The Process of My Ruchira Shaktipat begins At (and Perfectly Prior to) the heart-“Root” – and It always leads to the heart-“Root”, by Means of the Samadhi of the “Thumbs”.

    Atma Nadi – in Its “Regenerated” Form – is not merely a “line” of “conductivity” in the body.

    Rather, Atma Nadi – in Its “Regenerated” Form – Is the Fundamental Condition.

    Atma Nadi can be seen with reference to the body, but It has (Itself) nothing to do with the body or with the cosmic domain.

    Atma Nadi Is the “Bright”.

    In due course, Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga Manifests As the seventh stage Self-Awakening to Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

    Atma Nadi Persists Non-conditionally – without “cause”, and without conditional requirements or “exercises”.

    Atma Nadi Manifests Spontaneously.

    The Manifestation of Atma Nadi can be felt with reference to the body as the Love-Bliss-Full Current of My Transcendental Spiritual Self-Transmission, Extending from the “Root” Prior to the right side of the bodily apparent heart to the Matrix Infinitely Above the body-mind-“self”.

  249. no124c41

    When I first heard the news of Adi Da’s death, a lot of feelings began to percolate up as I recalled all my past involvement, and I found myself going through a kind of life review, and I stumbled onto this blog. I am enjoying and am helped by the excellent criticism here.
    I think one of the hardest things about leaving Adidam for me was that it WAS so powerful and juicy, and I took that as evidence for its claims. I didn’t know any other yardstick to measure by. After I left, I went to several spiritual groups, and saw a good number of spiritual teachers, but none had the power of Adi Da, nor the intensity requirement for participation that Adidam had, and so I tended to find them lacking and suspect. At the same time, I had left Adidam because I no longer trusted it or could take it, so I was confused.
    Still today, as I recall a Darshan with Adi Da, or the feeling of the sanctuaries I spent time on, nothing I have experienced compares in power.But I have come to realize that this has nothing to do with realization. I still don’t know what to make of it, how to explain the power, but it is not interesting any more, and it is a distraction, not realization.
    So while it is true that my involvement in the community was amazing (as well as outrageous and hurtful and an assault on my intelligence), I think of it as unique life experience with an “energy kicker” and something toxic at the edges. That’s probably all it is for me anymore.
    For me, since I got hooked into the teaching in 1976, it was a giant bait and switch operation, where the original teaching had brilliance and a focus on realization, but community life in the 80’s when I was formally involved turned into a bedlam of incredible (not credible) teaching demonstrations, and then finally came off the rails with the Divine Emergence, and then the FLO nonsense, and the eternal vows demanded of students (And BTW, what sense does it make to require an ETERNAL VOW from a student who is otherwise presumed to have no discernment in spiritual matters?).
    The old teaching was my first guide to realization, and I studied it deeply. For years, this man was my most trusted source of wisdom. I grew up believing him. As he astonished me more with his brilliance, I trusted him more. When you drink the coolaid this much, it’s really hard to get it out of your system, but I believe the purge is almost complete.

  250. Michael

    This certainly is a difficult topic to stay away from… What keeps bringing me back? It is truly not a desire to debate or argue (to what end?). For me, it is simply being able to talk about Adi Da with other people. It is a tremendous pleasure for me. It gives me the opportunity to exercise my rapidly aging mind (everything speeds up after a certain point in life, no?). It gives me the opportunity to talk about Adi Da and his Teaching, because in my personal life there are very few people I can even discuss with the matter of religion, never mind discussing Adi Da — apart from the friends I have who are devotees.
    And, in some odd way, I don’t really mind the negative talk, either. That which is prior to positive and negative still “contains” both, and so it is no surprise to me, anyway, that Adi Da would be confronted by both. I think it is fair to say that Adi Da is an awfully powerful magnet, cos you are either attracted to Him, or repelled. After that, I would say we are the only ones debating about which condition it’s better to be in. The rest of the world is going toward a far deeper depth of hell anyway, while we spew out a lot of intellect.
    I can totally relate to Conradg’s image of Adi Da laughing right now. I will always see that Giant Grin! But I think Adi Da is laughing because, in spite of all the world’s BS, all the conflict, all the darkness, all the stupidity, all the cruelty, the world is still a pretty good place to play in. Didn’t He say, “You have to be mad to be happy in a place like this”? The world is what it is and we are all just a wee bit serious about it — serious about maintaining it, serious about organizing it, and serious about being right in it… even while it’s disintegrating before our eyes. Maybe we all missed His point.

  251. slyder

    Feel4God

    Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
    I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him;
    The evil that men do lives after them,
    The good is oft interred with their bones,
    So let it be with Caesar … The noble Brutus
    Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
    If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
    And grievously hath Caesar answered it …
    Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest,
    (For Brutus is an honourable man;
    So are they all; all honourable men)
    Come I to speak in Caesar’s funeral …
    He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
    But Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And Brutus is an honourable man….
    He hath brought many captives home to Rome,
    Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
    Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
    When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
    Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And Brutus is an honourable man.
    You all did see that on the Lupercal
    I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
    Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
    And, sure, he is an honourable man.
    I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
    But here I am to speak what I do know.
    You all did love him once, not without cause:
    What cause withholds you then to mourn for him?
    O judgement! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
    And men have lost their reason…. Bear with me;
    My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
    And I must pause till it come back to me.

    “You all did love him once, not without cause”. Thing is Feel4God…we all did love him once. That divorce was not a pleasent event. It was not casualy taken. For myself, for the many that I have talked with about their choice, it was heart rendering. The conflict of their mind and their heart was terrible. Although you may dissagree, it was their heart that won out and in their own private horror died to Adi Da. The heart did win…not without the pain…not without the loss. I’ve seen none here glad to bury him. Too much of us goes to his grave.

    You must understand…when one concludes, especialy within Adidam, that the choice was egoic, oedipal, adolescent, etc., that these remarks are an offence to a choice made, a very mature and painfull choice, an offence to the people that made this choice, that you will be called on it. It is a reflection of ones own disrespect for oneself…a fear based response.

    I have read your posts…all of them. To ask posters to put up their pictures so that you can see in their eyes who they are begs the “I”ll show you mine if you show me yours”. Perhaps a better approach would have been to put your picture up along with your proposal, kinda a “good faith thing…a bit conventional I know, but a good gesture. What does a realizer look like anyway? You have come to a conclusion about Conrad wanting his Guru to look a certain way…what’s yours ( see, that’s that sticky “show me” thang)? Jesus (originaly a 6th stage demoted to 5th or is it 4th?) said “You will know them by their fruit”. What does a madman look like (ok, maybe I’ll show you my picture first)? I don’t know…do you? I’ve been fooled before.

    “Realizer of non-dualism”? What the hell is that? I don’t even have a clue about what the High Dharma is or what the hub-bub about it is. I can recite it wth the best, although Conrad would give me a run for my money ;-}. Do you know what it means ( ysmyf ;-) ). I know a lot of people that can talk about it, Frank included. Maybe you haven’t read all of my posts. Truth is, I came to the conclusion, somehow, that “I” had no clue how the hand works!!! How in the hell am I going to figure out “High Dharma” if I still have that unfinished buisiness? Do you know how it works? Anybody? Realy? Honestly, it is a time of a “consideration” of concepts and presumptions. I can’t take the discussion of high dharma seriously anymore than any other cosmology. It’s the same. All are pointers. All speech is pointers…”sacred” or casual. In the end babel. “Agreements” made, assumptions all the same. In the great dharma debate we talk about ego and the illusionary nature of the ego and how when one goes beyond the illusionary ego we see that it was illusionary all the time but cannot make that claim until we are realized cuz that would be the talking school and not it yet which you will know when you are finaly realized that the whole thing was a cosmic joke to begin with and you have a lot more time to play golf and chase your wife around the house cuz you ain’t chasing an imaginary tail or looking for the fucking gateless gate. Did I leave anything out? Oh ya…Freekin Amrita Nadi. Please do expound on it more…that is if you can tell me how my hand works…then I’ll have the attention for it. Keep getting returned to the mystery of it all…isn’t it? Where can I go to find out if I am a realizer of non-duality? Is there a test? Should I wear a suit for my interveiw? Don’t know what it is…hellofva “concept” as babel goes.

    I understand and do appreciate your devotion, no irony here. There is nothing, nothing in me that has a desire to change that. It IS a very personal choice and I honor that. We do disagree, but, I mean you no disrespect. I cannot however disrespect myself by not speaking out. I hope you can honor that too.

    Sri Sri Whatsitallaboutalfi

  252. corruptbystander

    OK, as best as I can follow it, according to his own prognostications, not only was Da completely non-dual; he was more non-dual than anyone else ever has been or ever will be…which might seem to make him singularly something except he was beyond whatever that is also…right?

  253. shiva

    @ Clara Llum:
    thanks for your post. i agree with every word you said.
    it was a good reminder that there is always only oneness.
    and no free will of course! who could have it?
    everything always happens in oneness and as oneness. and therefore nothings happens at all! isn’t that incredibly funny!?!?!

    always cracks me up when i see it again, especially how invested this “i” sees itself in all this nothingness. it is not always seen with the same clarity but your post served as a reminder.
    thank you.
    much love to you too, clara.

    @ConradG:
    thanks for your kind words and your outstanding posts here in general. always a pleasure to read.
    i am not steve b. and i haven’t heard that he was on the outs. i’d be surprised if he was.
    since the mahas know who i am anyways, i might as well reveal that i was quite well known in the community a few years back when i was performing a technical service (software development) for adi das art process. but that was probably after you left. you may not have seen the presentations and notes, etc.

    @NC:
    there is no “i” to be enlightened! and there is no “i” onto which any “divine other” could crash down.
    that is why adi das teaching is so dangerous and flat out wrong from a non-dual pov. it keeps you locked in the search by re-inforcing the “i”-illusion and by re-inforcing a dependency on the “divine other”.
    but then again: it is all a play on and as oneness. nothing ever happens. nothing to worry.
    oh, dear Feel4God, i can almost hear your oh so well-oiled and conditioned thoughts at this point. enjoy the ride! :-)

  254. Feel4God

    I understand that there is only one person who has to moderate all these posts (I sympathize and thank you for this!) – and so it tends to come in large batches at times. I very much appreciate their letting us use their blog space. However, this format sometimes makes for a very disjointed conversation. I would be willing, as atiasrama suggested, to take further considerations to a Forum where things get posted in real time, etc. However, after reading a bunch of the posts in the Daism section of the lightmind Forum, that looks like an even larger group of people biased against Daism than here. So if there is a more “neutral” Forum that we can speak openly and respectfully to one another about these great matters, I would be game. It should also have lots of emoticons! ;) :P :)

    By the way, atiasrama – I enjoyed seeing your picture. But I do think people have gone off the deep end with what I suggested. What are you guys trying to do with your various interpretations of what I suggested – make me look crazy? :P I am just happy that you didn’t post a naked picture of yourself from the 70’s, atiasrama! :P

    Here is what I originally suggested:

    Feel4God Says:
    And to those who feel they can simply call Adi Da a charlatan, given all that He has written, spoken, and created:

    I would very much appreciate your posting a link to your picture, and let our hearts confirm your own depth of understanding to be seen in your eyes and felt in your presence. Such depth is a necessary attribute you would have in order to make such absolutely judgmental statements about any great realizer.
    ************************************

    I am glad I reread some of the posts here. There are still some misunderstandings that I would like to consider about non-dualism and devotion in Adidam. I felt what Conradg is criticizing here about non-dualism and devotion is particularly useful to consider further.

    Conradg Says:
    “This is encouraged by the “seven stages” model, in which non-dualism is relegated to the sixth and seventh stages, and talking about it before that is considered “uppity” and even inappropriate. Rather, dualistic approaches, language, and concepts are considered far more appropriate, particularly the approach of dualistic devotionalism.”

    I hope you now understand that non-dualism is part of the initial stages of spiritual practice in Adidam – because, as always, they begin on the basis of Adi Da’s 7th Stage Realization. And the specific preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practices are what I already posted as “The Five Reality Teachings”. Obviously, those are non-dual and are practiced from very early on.

    Conradg Says:
    “This unfortunately makes for separative arguments that consider devotion to be in opposition to non-dualism, and vice-versa, which is simply not the case at all.”

    I understand what you are saying – but this is due to devotees’ misunderstanding – which Adi Da constantly addressed. It was not the fault of the Master. However, He was not going to just let us be a talking school of “Witness” glimpsers either.

    We absolutely needed Him to prepare us with a stable foundation in devotion and right life disciplines. He said once that was done and we were initiated into the spiritual stages truly, He would depart from here physically.

    And of course, devotion to the Realizer has always been the necessary foundation in Adidam and since ancient days. We really need to be careful to rightly discriminate between what devotees do (and did), and what Adi Da has recommended – especially during those early days when we were so immature in our approach to Him.

    Conradg Says:
    “The non-dual schools are highly devotional, they simply understand devotion to itself be non-dual. Worship of the Guru in non-dual schools is considered worship of one’s very Self, and is not made into some kind of objectified glorification of the Guru, but is understood to go beyond all such concepts and notions from the beginning. Nisargadatta, for example, performed a puja to his Guru every day of his life, long after his own realization, explaining that it meant nothing, it was just the fulfillment of a vow he had made to his Guru long ago.”

    Well said. Perhaps if the devotee is fully devotional, having already prepared and surrendered themselves physically, emotionally, mentally via the “lesser” approaches in the Great Tradition – then there may be the necessary basis for direct surrender to the Absolute Self.

    It is just that the ego, particularly in our modern Western cultures, thinks that it can surrender to the Self without any preparation and without a real Spiritual Master to guide him. This is what is called Talking School – and rightly so.

    Very interesting and impressive that Nisargadatta fulfilled his vow to his Guru. A lot of people give up on their vows to the Master – even before they are Realized!

    Hmmm, I probably shouldn’t have reread your last posts, Conrad. As I progressed through them, I can see now that I did not address all of your misgivings about my part in the Amrita Nadi debate.

    Conradg Says:
    Regarding this Amrita Nadi matter, I think we both know why we are focusing on it. It’s because it’s one of the linchpins of Adi Da’s claim to be the “First, Last, and Only Seventh Stage Realizer”, the unique and only fully realized Guru ever, than which there will never be another.”

    This is funny to me – as I said before, I just started talking about Ramana Maharshi because He represents some kind of common ground for us to consider in a positive light. It was much more about a relationship to people here than some grand debate idea. I am not very scholarly, so I would not have done this by tendency. I have never debated about this before – though I do find it very informative and useful.

    Conradg Says:
    “It’s only by trying to crudely fit traditional wisdom into Adidam conceptual categories that one confuses “Karuna Guru” with the Adidam concept of the “causal realm”. They aren’t in any sense the same. When Ramana used this term to describe himself, he was only saying that he was the highest kind of Guru, not that he was a Guru with some predilection for the causal realm.”

    Actually, until Adi Da, it does seem that the Karuna Guru does equal “Causal Guru” – that was Ramana’s Function and the word “Causal” was how Karuna was translated in the Ramana book – obviously a 6th Stage (“Causal”) perspective because that was all there was at the time.

    I do whole-heartedly agree with you, Conrad, that we cannot blindly accept any Teaching as the “Word” and then just as blindly believe in it. Adi Da has always admonished us to study His Works, to test them, etc.

    Given I am not a scholar, I no doubt did not do as much justice as one our Adidam scholars could have with Adi Da’s Teaching about these most advanced matters. But I can say that it is obvious from all kinds of statements from Ramana that He offered a Teaching that had to do with initially seeking within for the Source of the I-thought. This is undeniable and I quoted several passages to support this.

    Also, Ramana no doubt Realized the Self, but His function with devotees was to awaken them via the heart on the right to the Self – usually via the approach of “Self-enquiry” or tracing the source of the I-thought back to its root. Also, He described Amrita Nadi very seldomly and not as clearly as Adi Da has, in my opinion. Amrita Nadi was also the final “goal” of His Teaching – not the starting point and always necessary foundation, as Adi Da teaches, in terms of the relationship with Him.

    Ramana’s life and teachings also did not manifest as the fullest expression of Amrita Nadi – certainly not as compared to Adi Da with His most comprehensive radical Teaching Works, His great submission to devotees at all stages of development during all the Teaching years, His art, etc. etc.

    Only the One absolutely coincident with Amrita Nadi in Its Fullness (and whatever other great spiritual Vehicles of Realization He associated with to incarnate here) could provide so much! His Life Work speaks volumes – at least no one can deny that, regardless of how many holes they want to speak about in terms of Adidam, devotees’ immaturity and our misunderstandings, childishness, adolescence, etc.

    I will conclude with Adi Da’s very recent words on this matter (again from Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga). It goes into this most profound matter in more detail:

    The literature of the Great Tradition (including the literature associated with the sixth stage of life) makes general references to the heart – but the right side of the bodily apparent heart is a Yogic indicator that has only rarely been mentioned in the recorded literature of the Great Tradition.

    Ramana Maharshi spoke of the heart “on the right side of the chest” – but, in doing so, He was speaking of it from the sixth stage disposition (which was His own), and in reference to the sixth stage practice of dissociative introversion (which He taught).

    Ramana Maharshi taught a sixth stage practice of dissociative introversion, strategically turning away from body and mind via Descent in Atma Nadi (or Amrita Nadi), and, thus and thereby, exclusively fixed upon the Transcendetntal “Root”.

    The practice of “Self-enquiry” Ramana Maharshi taught revolves strategically away from the body-mind-“self”- through a process of dissociative introversion, in the characteristically sixth stage manner – and toward the interior (and thus, psycho-physically inward) “Source” of the egoic “I”-thought (or the “I-object”).

    In and by means of dissociative introversion (in the form of “Self-enquiry” relative to the “subjective” interior ego-space of the “I-object”), the practice Ramana Maharshi taught revolves away from the fourth and fifth stage (or gross and subtle) potentials of Spirituality.

    There was a causally-based (or sixth stage) mode of Spiritual Force in the Presence of Ramana Maharshi – but that Spiritual Force was associated, in His case (and in the characteristically sixth stage manner), with the strategically internalizing move away from the “world”, or the seeking effort of dissociative introversion.

    The “Radical” Reality-Way of Adidam Ruchiradam Is the Way of the “Regenerated” Atma Nadi (the “Root”-Current of Transcendental Spiritual Love-Bliss) – simply As the “Root”-Form, and As the Acausal Self-Condition and Source Condition of conditional appearances, and Always Already (and, thus, searchlessly, and not merely strategically, or eventually, or conditionally) Self-Established As “Perfect Knowledge” of the Intrinisically egoless Self-Nature, Self-Condition, and Self-State That Is Divine Conscious Light Itself.

  255. Clara Llum

    Dear Shiva, I’m very glad that my post brought a smile of “already the case” light-clarity to your divine heart.

    It’s funny how the oneness works. Few days before Da’s passing, I said some words, to my satsang friends, referencing him, on the subject of the ‘true object of devotion’. I remember mentioning something about how the role of God-Guru [in its most emphatic imperial version] can result deadly for some teachers. The audio is online; the transcript is not ready yet.

    Much Love to you again.
    Namaste.

    Your friend Clara

  256. Jerry Post author

    MODERATOR’S NOTE:

    I appreciate that you would like an unmoderated forum hosted by a neutral person.

    If 8 or 10 of you are interested, I could open a forum on YahooGroups. The regulars here will not be moderated. New members will be moderated at first.

    Let me know.

    Jerry Katz
    nonduality.org
    nonduality.com

  257. atiasrama

    Hi Feel4God, it looks like Jerry has come up with a viable idea.
    (Meanwhile, I look forward to actually catching up on what’s posted altogether here! Wow, so much.)
    I don’t think I’ve talked to too many Daists over the last ten years about posting online. Probably Cyril H and once William Tsiknas. When Adi Da was alive, I think it became something of a policy not to post at online forums. At least with one individual, lol! (Conrad) But, in those days we could be pretty wild and disrespectful. So, you had to be a real warrior, like I felt Conrad was in that context.
    Actually, it sounds like to me that Jerry’s Yahoo group idea, with him as owner/moderator, would probably work in encouraging current Adidam members (and Adi Da devotees with an informal relationship) to post. Because he can be trusted in these matters, it seems to me.
    I’m going to catch up at my own blog in posting planned articles related to personal encounters and experiences with Adi Da. Beginning with a few day visit to Persimmon (now, the mountain of attention) at the beginning of April 1975. It was awesome on several levels. It snowed heavily. I saw Bubba a lot. The yogic energies were flowing, very physically and concretely evident. (That particular long weekend wasn’t a party weekend….but, I did do service cleaning up broken beer bottles in the space between his house and the dining hall.) Just thinking over that time period, in preparing to write on that, evoked very detailed and specific memory images.
    Of many different things. Including encounters and experiences visiting with devotees in various SF households during that time period.

  258. Feel4God

    @ Jerry Katz, our Moderator – Thank you for the offer! So YahooGroups is a full blown real-time Forum? When you say the regulars will not be moderated, does that mean when we regulars submit a post, it just gets posted right away? Also, does it have paging, various topics, threads, etc., like lightmind’s Forum? Can the unmoderated people also start other topics?

    slyder Says:
    “You must understand…when one concludes, especialy within Adidam, that the choice was egoic, oedipal, adolescent, etc., that these remarks are an offence to a choice made, a very mature and painfull choice, an offence to the people that made this choice, that you will be called on it. It is a reflection of ones own disrespect for oneself…a fear based response.”

    I never said that as a generalized thing for everyone. I always said that each of us have to have self-understanding and to discover whether Adi Da can be our Master now or not. If I said someone was being adolescent, it was specifically toward a post they made, not to everyone in general who has left.

    You are twisting what I said into something generalized – in order to attack me on grounds of being some weird fundamentalist, I presume. I guess I will keep referring to this as “critic conditioning” (giving shiva partial credit, of course). ;)

    slyder Says:
    “To ask posters to put up their pictures so that you can see in their eyes who they are begs the “I”ll show you mine if you show me yours”.”

    This was in response to those who think it is just fine to be completely disrespectful to Bhagavan Adi Da – and especially during this time and on this blog. You are not the first one who has misinterpreted this request. Why is this getting so much confused attention? I have posted many other things and yet so many of you are getting focused on this one.

    For Conradg and others to say that a photo cannot show the (activity of) ego is very strange to me. It is very obvious that Realizers look way more advanced spiritually than us ordinary folk do. If you don’t see this, so be it. But to say no one else can see this, isn’t that kind of presumptuous?

    Again, please don’t twist my words into something I did not say. How about quoting my posts and then making your remarks like I am doing?

    “…if you can tell me how my hand works”

    I can appreciate your non-dual consideration here. In fact, that very argument is what Adi Da brought to us in 1976 called “Divine Ignorance”. And yes, it is all beyond mind, all a mystery in terms of ever knowing what it IS.

    “I hope you can honor that too.”
    No problem. Tell it like it is for you, but I hope with respect for others.

    shiva Says:
    “oh, dear Feel4God, i can almost hear your oh so well-oiled and conditioned thoughts at this point. enjoy the ride! :-)

    Hahaha! My thought processes are so well-oiled? But then how can you almost hear them? In any case, that is excellent to hear! Thank you for the warm words and the introduction to my last post as it turns out. (Where is the “heart” emoticon around here anyway? ;) )

    no124c41 Says:
    “And BTW, what sense does it make to require an ETERNAL VOW from a student who is otherwise presumed to have no discernment in spiritual matters?).”

    I look at this as part of the approach to one’s Spiritual Master – to surrender everything, including oneself, to Him for eternal guidance and God Realization. And the Eternal Vow definitely requires us to more seriously consider what we are signing up for.

    @ NC – Good to see you again – and a very funny photo!

    Eddie B Says:
    “Devotees of Adi Da live in platitudes and do not live the life of Humor Adi Da supposedly came to incarnate in this world.”

    I am sorry you never got to experience that. It is very commonplace in my experience. Well, maybe not on this blog… Do people laugh around here, by the way? ;)

    HAHAHAHAHA! I just figured out what FLO means! Is there a “Critics Guide to Daist Terms” available so I can stay up with the jargon? ;)

    By the way, why do people get so upset over this one? From the Acausal Divine Reality’s “standpoint” wouldn’t there only be Reality – the First, The Last, and the Only would always already be that One Reality.

    Okay, I admit that when Bhagavan Adi Da started making these statements, at first it bugged me too – especially when I thought of others not so involved in Adidam. But as I considered it more deeply, it became clear as a radically Non-Dual Statement that only the Acausal Divine Reality could truly make – and in such an outrageous manner! I just hope people understand it and see the real Humor in it.

    Come on, guys, any true non-dualist can understand this. Think about it – utter ego dissolution would always be the same One Reality.

  259. Stevie, fallen out of Wonderland

    Hi Everyone!

    I am so grateful for everyone taking the time and energy to do all these posts.

    What a great forum for examining non-duality, spiritual practice and the legacy of Adi-Da.

    On a personal level, it has been really empowering for me to realize that, like me, many ex-devotees went through a very similar in-depth long-term period of immersion in Da’s and adidam’s pool and then after deep (and I mean deep) heart-felt consideration made the difficult, but necessary choice to step into their own shoes, see through their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.

    On this note, thank you Conradg. Former Follower, Stuart, Shiva,NatRaj and Eddie B (Yes, I understand you completely!)
    and, like you all (I presume) I am extremely grateful for all and everything that dear, crazy Da gave me….and glad that at last my own true heart took it’s rightful place….sorry it’s not up for argument about that…you gotta stand there in your own case for yourself!

    To the devotees; we (the ex-devotees) have all been there and know where you’re coming from. We know all the rationale, all the blisses, all the put-downs, all the justifications..We also know that you’ll never see what we see…until you “kill the Buddha” and stand in your own place. I truly wish you a happy life and a Bright Now! May you find the place where your own true hearts stand free. If that freedom is truly to be found for you in being bound to Da and Adidam….so be it…but I wouldn’t count on world domination now the main attraction is gone.

    Thank you feel4God (especially for the grammar tips!) , Blisscake, N.C. NotQuandra et al…..watch what they do!

    Yep….it sure is a Big Mystery!

    love,

    Stevie

  260. Jerry Post author

    YahooGroups is not a bulletin board as is Lightmind Forum. It’s an email list. The emails are broadcast to everyone. You can choose to receive individual emails, or a digest containing up to 25 emails in a single email, or you may choose to receive no emails and to read the postings on the yahoogroups website for the list. You can read the emails by subject/thread. The search engine is excellent. You can conduct polls and upload files and photos. I use only YahooGroups. http://groups.yahoo.com/

    Jerry

  261. NC

    Posting here has brought up a lot for me, a lot of pain and unresolved feelings that needed to be examined and let go. That was why I withdrew from the forum the other day.
    When I left the community, I went through such a downward spiral. So much pain and disillusionment! I had to confront the rage I had about not being the chosen one, not just by Samaraj Adi Da, but by everyman, and everywoman who had come into my life. It was a very intense wound that was at the core of my being. I won’t bore you with the dirty details of my family of origin, and why that little patterning got set in place, but let’s just say it was a deeply traumatic childhood. People close there heart off for much less, and sometimes much more. The past is not a detriment to me, if I allow my subjectivity to be released around it. There is grace in suffering.
    A lot of criticisms of the community, and the guru, have been very painful for me, and not because I haven’t had my own issues, but because they encourage a kind of victim mentality that is disempowering. It has been very useful for me, to ask this question of myself: “What do I bring to the table, in each and every relationship?”
    Everything that Samaraj Adi Da has said in His books, in his recorded talks, in the leelas of Him by devotees, and in the personal notes he gave me is starting to unfold in my consciousness in a new way. The reason I posted the self-portrait, was because it was done several years ago, when I first spun away from the community. It does reflect the separation I felt, and the feelings that I would be devoured if I continued on with my meditation on His form. Because I am more of a visually oriented person this was the only way, I could express it.
    There is no blame to be had. I refused to practice in the tremendous way that He required. I understand why I was not able to make that choice. It is complete sacrifice. The self cannot do it, because it is bound to fear and attachments.
    With His death, I realized I will always love Him. That is one of my great privileges. To many, he was just mad genius. He is a portal to me, beyond me.
    I have felt “deeply dissatisfied, intensely unhappy, psychically imprisoned” With Him I experienced freedom from my dissatisfaction, and also an intensification of my resistance. He demanded everything, not for the sake of “himself” but for the sake of love. Jerry, I have experienced non duality.
    If anyone has been to Fear No More Zoo, they will feel the incredible tenderness that was really at the core of his teaching. The reason we got His power foot, is frankly because we needed our asses kicked. If anyone thinks he didn’t do it in a loving way, I’d like to introduce you to my father, who was almost charged with attempted murder. The ego is a terrible thing, and we must forgive ourselves for being much less than perfect in relationship to Him. What He demanded was radical, total. But at the same time, there is personal responsibility. There’s freedom in owning up.
    Pema Chodren gave a wonderful talk about the spiritual teacher having to be the biggest trouble maker in your life, so you can see where you are provoked, and get stuck. She says if we really want liberation we need these people in our lives. Check it out if you have the chance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qFi52FX1Q
    We are all troublemakers to each other. Samaraj Adi Da was a Troublemaker with a capital T!

    As you can see, in spite all of my resistance I remain a lover of Samaraj Adi Da. …a very cautious one, but nonetheless…He stays with me

  262. Feel4God

    Very personal and touching confessions! Thank you for sharing those. And a cool video too, NC.

    Stevie, fallen out of Wonderland Says:
    “…but I wouldn’t count on world domination”

    Good to hear this – I am already busy enough! ;)

    Stevie, fallen out of Wonderland Says:
    “Thank you feel4God (especially for the grammar tips!)”

    Hahahaha! I am glad you got something out of my posts, Stevie – at least now it can’t be said that they served nothing positive. Lng liv gud grama!

    Stevie, I have noticed that you (and several people here) made mention of the famous quote “If you meet the Buddha on the way, kill him” as something relevant to your departure from Adidam. Do you think that this statement can be reconciled with what we have been talking about in terms of devotion and non-duality?

  263. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    I sympathize with your desire to keep this consideration going in some kind of moderated forum elsewhere, in that I do enjoy good dharma discussions, and if I am going to waste time surfing the internet, which pray tell I am going to do anyway, it makes sense to do it in animated dharma debates rather than most of the other things I might entertain myself with. I’m just not that much into the whole “Da” debate anymore, it gets a little tiresome trying to untangle that mess, and I’m just not out to “win” this whole thing.

    As Jerry Katz, our very patient host here, has suggested, we could create a Yahoo discussion group. However, I find the software on those groups very poor. To be honest, the best kind of software is the kind Elias uses at lightmind, and though you probably don’t much like his site’s emphasis on the negative, I would be willing to bet that he’d be open to allowing us to create a moderated forum there for civilized discussion of these Adidam issues, and leave unmoderated remarks for the regular forum there.

    The problem is, any forum on any public website would undoubtedly be dominated by critics of Adidam, regardless of how civil they were. This is because the world as a whole, at least that part of it which knows much about Adidam, is heavily weighted towards criticism of Adidam, rather than praise. These are just the unpleasant facts any advocate of Adidam has to face up to. If Adidam wants to change that, they are going to have to demonstrate a different kind of engagement with the public.

    I certainly did back in the 90’s when I became active on the Wilber and Lightmind forums, trying to defend Adi Da. I even tried, to no avail, to get Adidam to become more directly involved in facing these critics, even proposing a public Adidam website that would host these kinds of discussions. At first, it was agreed to, but later it was rescinded, by order of the RSO, and all kinds of strict rules were laid down forbidding devotees from posting on the internet about Adi Da without permission, which was of course not granted.

    I was hounded by the Adidam leadership for my participation in these internet discussions, even denied Darshan, and at one point even labelled a security risk. So you really should be warned that you could be endangering your status within Adidam if you continue these discussions much longer. For me, it was no big deal, it just helped me to see that I was on the wrong side of the debate, that the people who were really interested in free consideration weren’t in Adidam at all. Adidam was interested only in quashing any kind of serious debate, and stonewalling all criticism instead. How well did that work out? I don’t think very well at all.

    Anyway, if you like, I can mention the idea to Elias, and see if he’s into it. And I’ll post a response to your latest on Ramana/Amrita Nadi soon. But I don’t know that very many active devotees would ever participate in such a forum in any case. If you think otherwise, let us know.

  264. soulsurfer

    Dear forum,
    one of The problems with setting someone up as your GOD man, and labeling him as crazy wise, leaves you open for any and all kinds of treatment with no accountability or limits .Everything, and I MEAN>>>> everything gets explained or {spun} off as cool because its the crazy avadhoot .Never give up your will to anyone,and if you do, be ready for whatever.
    The other thing that doesnt fit is the constant contradictions, in the teaching. When I started in 1975 during the breath and name phase, there were no murtis, the hall had a picture of a chair ,flowers,fruit or offering. Photos of Adidam were not used then.Years later the close up photo took on a new meaning .
    On the anniversarry tape with the 9 short talks spanning decades, he starts off with saying there is nothing to be realized, nothing!!! Then continuesto go on to say you should relate to him as in the Krishna story being totally distracted in the geru, almost like any seeker would do but with a little different job description.
    with all due respect , I think this passing will force many to get jobs, take personal responsibility, turn to only GOD and surrender your functional fear.
    God is everyone, or as the great one said, there is only conciousness itself!
    Regards to you all.

  265. Eddie B

    Thank you all for contributing so much of yourselves, something that probably would not have happened before Adi Da’s death. It seems his passing has created the opportunity and space for those affected by him to engage in real dialogue. Not everyone will use the opportunity well – some will continue to make differences when none exist – but I am grateful it has occurred.

    The long debates over dharma really fascinates me probably because I was once a research scientist with a penchant for detailed complexity. I was also once a great nitpicker amongst also-rans. However, it occurred to me some time ago that we (scientists, philosophers, pundits, Adidam) create complexity out of utter simplicity. My greatest discovery was that the act of observation actually creates the complexity! (Is there any precedent for this statement in Adi Da’s literature? It has precedents in quantum physics.)

    Having said all that, I find the on-going discussion between Conradg and Feel4God quite riveting. It will probably not change anything but hey, those guys can rap! I’d join in the fun if my brain functioned like it used to. And thanks Stevie fallen out of Wonderland – short and sweet. I don’t care if you, me (or anyone else) are fooling ourselves. How would I know anyway?

    The astonishing thing about all of this is that whether I have a greater sympathy for one position (ex-devotees) or the other (current devotees) doesn’t concern me anymore. Yes, my experiences are closer to those who have left Adidam and can now look back with a new form of discrimination. And I do have difficulty communicating with those who remain bound in the drama of Adidam cultism. But, hey, what has any of this got to do with the Truth? Who was it that said “There is not the slightest difference.”

    The greatest gift I got from Adi Da is recognizing that I simply do not know anything. Is there more to know than that? Who knows?

  266. no124c41

    Feel4God says:
    ” the Eternal Vow definitely requires us to more seriously consider what we are signing up for.”
    I would say so!
    But I can’t help but compare what my old teacher Bubba Free John said when asked about the Bodhisattva Vow:
    “Why should anyone take such a vow? Who is there to take it? Who is there to fulfill it?”

  267. slyder

    Feel4God says;

    “Stevie, I have noticed that you (and several people here) made mention of the famous quote “If you meet the Buddha on the way, kill him” as something relevant to your departure from Adidam. Do you think that this statement can be reconciled with what we have been talking about in terms of devotion and non-duality”?

    YES…but perhaps only at an “individual” level.

    “Your own self is your ultimate teacher (sadguru). The outer teacher (Guru) is merely a milestone. It is only your inner teacher that will walk with you to the goal, for he is the goal”.
    ~Nisargadatta Maharaj

    For some “Killing the Buddha” becomes the most intimate expression of love and devotion.

  268. Feel4God

    First off Conradg, thanks for that very clear post about our options for going elsewhere with all of this discussion. I like discussing all this Dharma too and I can see why you were called a scholar when you were in Adidam.

    But even more so, I like talking about what is going on in real life and how the practices apply in specific ways. This is partly why Adi Da’s Teachings have so much application in every area of life. Yes, Adi Da has spent a lot of time with diet considerations – and now all of this practical wisdom actually helps a lot of people. The same with the emotional-sexual considerations – vast amounts of wisdom that can help with issues in this area. Heheh, even a non-dualist can have a question or consideration about sex!

    Of course there are also the areas of service, meditation, worship, spiritual experiences, etc., that we have also been instructed in.

    The practices that Adi Da has given us can be summarized as devotion, right life disciplines, and the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice which “Awakens Tacit Establishment In and As the Witness-Position of Consciousness Itself”.. Adi Da Samraj has shown us how these three are all necessary. To me, these are of real importance to consider and apply rightly.

    So there is an urge in many Daists to speak freely about all of these Gifts. I know I stumbled upon this blog and felt that it was a way of honoring the relationship to my Spiritual Master by posting about His Greatness; and to try and speak with anyone who wanted to consider whatever they were going through in their relationship to Him.

    It is always about relationship – I care much much more about that than I do debating the Dharma. And during this time of His Mahasamadhi, a lot of people want to relate about this.

    I like Michael being here – he brings an evenness and balance, plus he speaks very well. He genuinely seems to like to talk about Adi Da with anyone. I wish more Daists were here, but on these open Forums it can get pretty ugly at times and most Daists understandably do not want to deal with that – particularly with our Master just departing physically. For me, I find it a way to remember Him, even to distract myself with Him – though I can get riled sometimes when the posts are extremely disrespectful. They have greatly eased up though in this regard.

    Conradg, I don’t know what to think about going forward with all of this. I am more interested in what peoples’ actual practices are, and how it works for them – whether they were or are part of Adidam or not. I also hope we can further consider what you brought up about devotion and non-dualism. This is very useful in terms of practice, in my opinion – so if we can speak about the Dharma as it actually relates to our current practices, that is best – although the Amrita Nadi debate has been very interesting.

    In terms of practicalities – I agree that lightmind is the best choice in terms of software. That kind of Forum is what I also had in mind. However, given all the anti-Daist posts there, etc., etc. – why would I want to add to the activity of that site even if we had our own space? It is one thing to have critical discussions like we have been having here, and quite another to just hear people ranting extremely sarcastically every chance they get. So you can see why wouldn’t want to be part of increasing any traffic to such a site. You might say, well why not try to bring something positive about Adidam to lightmind – but it would just be a drop in a very large bucket of negativity, at least given the areas that I explored. If I am wrong about this, please let me know.

    So, I guess I will just keep posting here if there is anything more any of us want to consider; unless there is some other neutral site with similar software to lightmind. This current blog site is all about non-duality, plus Jerry has been very gracious – and also seems very neutral, and that is the most important aspect to me anyway.

  269. ShivaShakti

    There is no doubt Franklin had serious psychological issues in the form of grandiose delusions. The problem is, he was smart enough to write some good books and convince a group around him to join in his madness. That group gave his delusions a sort of critical mass that helped get everything going for him. He couldn’t have done it on his own.

    I was sucked in for awhile in the 70’s, but saw the group morph into outright hero worship as Franklin became a Golden Calf who expected everyone to worship him. For the first few years I believed that we weren’t a cult, partly because he criticized us for any cultic tendencies and put down other groups as being cultic. But eventually it became obvious that the things he made us do were exactly what a cult of personality would do. I think he always thought he was God in a way that no one else was, but became more confident about this as time passed and we reinforced his feelings of superiority. It was a two-way exercise.

    The community was more about working, partying and trying to get near Bubba than it was about spiritual practice. Almost no one understood the teaching as far as I could tell, but we were too busy to worry about that.

    The Way of Divine Communion was when it went over the top for me and the light went on. I wasn’t interested in worshipping God (or Franklin) like a traditional God figure. I came for the Way of Understanding.

    But in hindsight, it was ALWAYS a cult of personality, even in the early days. Franklin took advantage of people. He got away with things I’ve never seen anyone do, and I hung with some pretty wild crowds in my younger years.

    As far as him saying there was “Only God,” there was never any sense in which devotees were treated like God by him. It was always the other way around.

    Our time together in the beginning was alternately exciting and boring, but eventually it became dull and repetitive. He pulled back and wanted to be worshipped like a life-size doll in his silly pope-like costumes and hats. Everyone became uptight about everything. He withdrew to Hawaii and there was only access for the inner circle, who wanted him all for themselves.

    Earlier on, he was more approachable and very funny when he was in a good mood and drunk or stoned. I saw his moods swing more as time passed and the weight of managing a larger group started to weigh on him. I think Franklin had a good side to him and could be charming when he wanted but was very narcissistic, which was his downfall.

    I left in the late 70’s but kept in touch with people after that. I could swear he went a little crazy or became delusional over the years. If you look at what he wrote in the beginning and what he wrote later it’s hard to draw any other conclusion.

    After I left the community I gradually began to see just how messed up it was, and how far off track I had gone in accepting things that just weren’t right or true. But the journey into delusion happened one step at a time, rather insidiously, even though it started with the best of intentions. I accept responsibility for not seeing the signs along the way, and for allowing myself to be misled. That’s what growing up is all about.

    So, RIP Franklin. My years with you were mostly a lesson about how not to live. I was sad to see what you turned into — I’m just glad I didn’t let it happen to me.

  270. NC

    no124c41, That’s probably the purpose of taking it, to realize that there is no fulfillment. Different people have different karmas. The search takes on many forms. Some people have to learn about the religion business. It’s not that it’s without it’s usefullness. They are the caretakers of the esoteric way, and the sanctuaries, but to think it’s any different than chopping wood, and carrying water is, in my way of seeing things, deluded.
    That is why I find the Mummery so powerful. Raymond Darling submits to the emptiness of the religion. Raymond has dropped the egg of expectation that he be fulfilled….so all it becomes is the theatre of bringing awareness to all aspects of the search.
    There are so many ways he answers my questions about spiritual life, but I do enjoy my independence, and freedom to consider other ways of life. I know that I don’t have the karmas to do that kind of practice that the people on the island do. For whatever reason, my spiritual practice does not look like that. At one time, I thought it had to. Does that make me inferior, or superior? I don’t think I have to compete anymore. Been there done that.

  271. atiasrama

    I’m having trouble finding this old gallery photo online that I’ve seen in Adidam video presentations on its history and a cropped version in Carolyn Lee’s bio of Adi Da (in the chapter covering the April 1975 events where “Bubba” became a General, capturing the evil chocolate covered auric forces mobilizing against him at that time). There’s a photo of him on the Dining Hall porch, with a guy in a long navy peacock standing right in front of him. Anyone knowing where there’s an uncropped photo of that please let me know. I would love to use that in my blog article upcoming on a weekend I spent there. (The guy in the photo is me.)

  272. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    I can certainly understand why you wouldn’t want to have discussions at Lightmind. It would just be easier that way. Perhaps you should create your own website with a forum. I think good forum software has gotten cheap, and you might even find some open source stuff that’s good, or “borrow” some somewhere. Maybe it’s about time devotees had a place on the internet to talk openly, and deal with critics on your own terms. Well, I’d encourage you to do just that.

    Regarding matters of practice, that’s kind of my feeling too. I enjoy dharma debates, but how you live is where the rubber hits the road. And that’s precisely the point I was about to make regarding these abstract debates about Amrita Nadi. We could of course argue forever about the technical matters here, of who said what when. I think on that level its very clear that Adi Da more than acknowledged Ramana as an “Amrita Nadi” realizer, he used Ramana to attempt to confirm his own status. Likewise, when he visited Ramanashram in 1977, he claimed to have an experience of Amrita Nadi there that fully confirmed Ramana to him, and the wisdom of Amrita Nadi. He said it was “like meeting my twin brother”. I’m not sure how much more specific you can get. How he turns around fifteen years later and tries to deny all this stuff is quite beyond me.

    But it’s in life that we see whether someone is genuinely realized. Ramana didn’t like to talk about yogic experiences, such as Amrita Nadi, because to him such things were very much besides the point. They are just one more conditional way of talking about things. There are yogic traditions in India, but Ramana didn’t take a lot of stock in them, because they are all conditionally based. He made references to them now and then, to their systems of dharma, he even mentioned such things as the “heart on the right”, but really, it was not something he devoted much time to. Adi Da made a big deal out of Ramana’s “heart on the right” business, but Ramana himself did not. He considered it merely incidental and secondary to both practice and realization. He never told people to meditate on the heart on the right, in fact, he wasn’t big on meditation at all. And he didn’t put any undo emphasis on these yogic centers and experiences that might arise. He certainly didn’t recommend any kind of concentrated interiorization upon the heart on the right, or even the Self.

    You quote Da at length accusing Ramana of being merely a sixth-stager who taught a dissociattive path that is clearly false to anyone who was at all aware of Ramana’s actual teachings and practices:

    “Ramana Maharshi taught a sixth stage practice of dissociative introversion, strategically turning away from body and mind via Descent in Atma Nadi (or Amrita Nadi), and, thus and thereby, exclusively fixed upon the Transcendetntal “Root”.”

    First, there was nothing disassociative about Ramana’s practice. He did not recommend meditation, introverted or otherwise, and even self-enquiry was only to be practiced as a concentrated practice for relatively short periods of time. Otherwise, it was simply to be a constant approach to every moment of a rather active life. He said that the life of self-enquiry was a “gregarious life”, filled with all the ordinary human relationships and activities of ordinary life. He was adamantly opposed to a renunciate lifestyle, and with very few exceptions he opposed any of his devotees becoming renunciates. He instead favored a householder’s life, filled with ordinary human contacts, within which the practice of self-enquiry would flourish, not some “disassociative” life that turns away from the body as you and Da would suggest. In fact, his ashram was quite different from many traditional Indian ashrams. Another famous local Guru, Sheshadri (sp?) Baba, who Ramana had great respect for, and vice versa, used to joke when visitors asked where Ramana’s ashram was that “Oh, there’s a group of householders up the hill”.
    Ramana himself lived a very simple, relational life, not disassociated from the body. The Adidam stereotype around Ramana is based solely on the first few years after his realization, when he lived in a cave and had to be taken care of by others. As he later explained, this wasn’t because he was disassociated from the body or the world, it was just that a powerful yogic process was purifying and transforming his body for higher purposes of some kind. Once that brief period was over, however, Ramana lived a very open, happy, relational life with others that didn’t stop until he died. In his life practice, he treated everyone as an equal, as the Self, literally. He worked in the ashram kitchen every morning cutting vegetables and preparing the day’s meals, with a crew of other devotees. He gave simple instructions on all the basics of life over the course of the years, without all kinds of crazy “teaching demonstrations” being necessary, or obsessive concentration on diet, sexuality, etc. Beyond what is natural and necessary, such obsessions simply distract from the real matters of spiritual practice. He never even closed the doors to his bedroom, but insisted that it be kept open day and night, so that any devotee, or even outside visitor, could come in to talk with him if needed. He kept no secrets, and did not allow anyone to solicit money on his behalf, or the ashram’s behalf, but relied purely on wholly voluntary donations, because he wanted everyone’s relationship to him to be free and open, not disturbed by the worldly mind.

    The notion that self-enquiry as Ramana taught it turns away from the body is also simple nonsense. In fact, Ramana himself was very critical of that approach, the negating approach of some traditional advaitins, the “neti, neti” approach that does indeed disassociate from all objects. Ramana pointed out that this approach could never achieve realization because it made separation the principle of its approach, and required that attention be put on the thing it wished to discriminate itself from. Instead of noticing the body, and disassociating from it, telling oneself that it isn’t real, etc., Ramana said that you should simply ask yourself who is observing the body, the world, the mind, etc. In this way, no effort of disassociation is made, no conceptual judgments are made about the body, mind, or world, one is simply directed towards the witness of these. If that is a dissociative approach, then so is Da’s own “five teachings” that you quoted the other day, which directs devotees to be the witness of what arises.

    Self-enquiry as Ramana taught it could be summarized in two ways: one, as the simple approach of feeling the basic sense of self, of “I”, and feeling beyond it to its source; and two, as abiding as the witness of everything that arises. This is not a dissociative practice in any sense, it is merely “being real”, or “be as you are”, as Ramana often said. There is no need to disassociate from anything to be as you are, quite the opposite. It is mind and ego which are disassociative, and as these subside, one find oneself entering into a condition of egoless self-abidance. Ramana taught that even self-enquiry cannot bring about realization, it can only bring the mind to the point of stillness, in which the “I”-thought is held still. It requires the Guru’s grace to draw them “I”-thought down into its source, into the heart. If the ego is not fully surrendered, the “I”-thought will rise up again, and create more mind, but if it does not, it dies in the heart, the knot of the heart is opened, and the light of the heart rises up instead first through the Amrita Nadi, and then through all the nadis, so that body and world are recognized as the Self. This is hardly a disassociative realization. To see all as the Self is not some form of concentration on the Self. It is no different than what Da tries to exclusively claim for the seventh stage of life in his terminology, in which all that arises is recognized as the Divine Self.

    So this whole notion that Ramana taught a dissociative method of turning away from life and body is, to put it kindly, a simple lie. You are admittedly not very well versed in these traditions, and I suppose you are just repeating what you have been taught in Adidam, so I probably can’t blame you for trying to be loyal and true to Da. You probably can’t even imagine that Da would lie. But frankly, there’s no other explanation. Da was way too familiar with the facts to suggest that he’s merely ignorant about Ramana’s life, teachings, and practices. This is kind of sad, really, and I take no great pleasure in pointing it out, but the facts speak for themselves, if you take the time to check them out, which hardly anyone in Adidam ever does.

    In fact, it only raises the question as to whether Da himself has actually realized what he claims or describes, or if he is not merely one of those people mentioned by Ramana and his devotees, such as Lakshmana, who did in fact experience the “fall” into the heart, but whose “I”-thought did not perish, but rose up again, re-creating the mind once again, but in Da’s case, with a certain energetic conviction about his own self-realization. It is mentioned in the literature around Da that this does indeed happen to a number of people, who think themselves thereby enlightened, when in fact it is the ego that is protecting itself by creating a sense of Divinity about itself, and rendering itself immune to the real process of realization. If one studies the actual pattern of Adi Da’s life and mind, I think this is the more likely explanation. His obsession with Amrita Nadi, and his need to make himself out to be the unique realizer of this, could well be due to his own failure to surrender fully in the heart, and to have instead risen as the ego back out of the heart into the mind, confusing this with the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi described by Ramana. It would also explain Da’s obsessive megalomaniacal fixation upon himself, and his desire to make himself the perfectly Divinized ego of a whole new religion. It’s not that Adi Da didn’t come close, of course, it’s just not good enough, and ends up creating even greater illusions for the ego to overcome. But in that sense it’s a useful example for all of us of how the ego can create endless diversions to avoid its own extinction in the heart.

  273. Conradg

    Typo in the last paragraph of my last post. I wrote:

    “It is mentioned in the literature around Da that this does indeed happen to a number of people, who think themselves thereby enlightened, when in fact it is the ego that is protecting itself by creating a sense of Divinity about itself, and rendering itself immune to the real process of realization.”

    Instead of “Da”, I meant to write “Ramana”.

  274. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    In describing your disinterest in having a forum at Lightmind, it occurs to me that you may be thinking of the old Lightmind site, which actually closed down for over a year, and only recently re-opened. The old lightmind forum used to be pretty wild and sometimes quite negative, but the new forum is quite small and pretty mild. Most people have pretty much walked away from the Adidam debate, and it just doesn’t have the same charge as it used to. I emailed Elias about this idea, and he’s quite willing to host a forum, and very open to whatever format and composition of the forum you’d like, even limiting membership so as to keep it fairly balanced between devotees and critics. He’s even opened a discussion thread over there about this. If you want to check out his site, this is the link:

    http://www.lightgate.net/forum/index.php

    The new forum discussion thread is here:

    http://www.lightgate.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=113&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

  275. akasha

    To Former Follower and Critic:

    As I stated some days ago, I firmly believe that Da was a secret tantric Shaivist, which accounts for his assessment of Ramana Maharshi (and all traditional advaitists) as 6th stage realizers. who direct attention to the I-source in Consciousness and thus realizes Consiousness itself (as the prior condition [sic]) exclusive of arising phenomena, but where phenomena becomes subsumed in Consiousness. This of course would was traditionally explained, by Shankara, as seeing all existence as only Brahman. [see Crest Jewel of Liberation and the Avadhuta Gita by Shankara).

    However, as I stated previously, in Kashmir Shaivism (a tantric tradition) there is no division between the energy of arising phenomena and Consiousness – a realization of the unity of Shiva and Shakti. This, I am pretty sure, is what Da tried to explain as his 7th stage realization. So, this debate about the intention of Ramana Maharshi obscures the fact that Da has deliberately set up his model of Sahaj Samadhi in the 7th stage, as superior to the a 6th stage realizer, as a conard that purposely is intended to beg for the superiority of his model. A disengenous approach that doesn’t truly define the terms that are being used in the debate about R.M. vis-a-vie Sahaj Samadhi.

    But as I see it, it is a debate over emphasis and technique rather than ultimate realization. I don’t think that an advaitist is any less aware of the non-duality of phenomena and consciousness than a tantrika (or a realized Daist). Just as, ultimately, there is no real difference in the realization of a Zenist and practitioner of Mahamudra or Dzogchen in tantric Buddhism.

  276. Feel4God

    Conradg, I would highly recommend that you study some of Adi Da’s most recent Works, especially if you haven’t already. His descriptions of the “Divine ‘Bright’ Spherical Self-Domain” are a most profound elaboration of this Amrita Nadi consideration. Atma Nadi Shakti Yoga and several other new books are available from the Dawn Horse Press. Of course, I only felt free to post some quotes from His published books, but He worked tremendously to pen His final Works in the Aletheon coming out next year. I have never read anything like this anywhere!

    I agree, it does seem that we have hit an impasse with all this debate about Adi Da and Ramana. However, I don’t really understand how you can draw your final “mostly likely” conclusions given all evidence to the contrary with Adi Da – particularly the brilliant consistency with which He not only describes but further elaborates these processes, and most importantly, His constant absolute characteristic of Conscious Light and Love-Bliss, and His incredibly creative participation in every aspect of life. Regardless, the Way of Adidam has nothing to do with the mind of belief or doubt – we still must transcend ourselves and go through these processes just the same.

    Regarding my time of practicing Self-enquiry by Ramana, I already mentioned that this started several years prior to ever meeting Adi Da. I immersed myself in the Teachings of Ramana Maharshi for those years (40 years ago), and the practice (as I understood it from the books available in the 60s and 70s), was one of “tracing” the I-thought back to its Source in the heart. So I was not under the influence of the “Adidam version” of Ramana as you implied. Yes, I agree, it was not a matter of concentrating on the heart on the right, but it was definitely an internalized abiding in (concentrating on) the sense of the “I-thought” and “tracing” it back to its Source.

    Also, I very much got the impression that Ramana was quite ascetic in his overall orientation toward participating in life from those same books. Hey, maybe that is what his ashram wanted to have people think back then – I don’t know, but this was also my own sense of Ramana long before I became a devotee of Adi Da.

    Last night I decided to experiment in meditation with Self-enquiry. I fell into a steady and all too familiar sense of self, and soon thereafter also felt a falling of attention toward the heart on the right. However, suddenly it became readily clear what the difference is between this “I-thought” practice and simply my beholding of the Reality that is Adi Da directly, based on the foundation of the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” practice. The latter always yields a sense of immediate and direct contact with Conscious Love-Bliss as the felt/intuited characteristic. In short, I found the I-thought approach as meditation on me and the other as meditation on what Is already the case. However, I will test this again very soon – unless of course I get infilled with Love-Bliss right away! ;)

  277. atiasrama

    I think akasha has really nailed it. Anyone remember Adi Da suggesting poetically this “watery” quality to Consciousness? I always liked that. I’m very sympathetic to the Shaivistic “feel” on this, in the way akasha laid it out. Not only are Shiva/Shakti (Consciousness/Energy) a unity, but they are not two distinct things merely joined together.
    Now, so far as Ramana Maharshi being Mr. Introversion, just go to youtube, spend a couple of hours of actually looking at great old film of him, and then get back with your thoughts on that take!

  278. Michael

    Feel4God… thank you for the nice comment. You are right, I LOVE talking about Adi Da and the Teaching, and I love discussing what it means to be human, what it means to be alive, what it means to live in a world, in a galaxy, in a universe…

    Sometimes I feel that human intellectual activity is as much a problem as any other kind of problem humans have to deal with. We (and when I say “we” I include myself) spend much time using our minds, we formulate ideas and strategies, all based on our perception and experience, which is a highly subjective matter anyway. But one man’s liver is another man’s pudding. What one man believes is God, another man believes is the devil. What offends one man can be attractive to another. And, even more, that intellectual activity is seemingly hell-bent on reducing everything to some final conclusion about everything and everyone. We attempt to dissect everything and everyone, but it always seems there is a next step to reducing it further. And in that reductive mode, it seems we are often merely trying to find fault.

    I recall Adi Da asking, “What is there?” That question could sound either ridiculous or profound, depending on how it impacts one’s mind and feeling. For me, it was a very profound question. What is there? It seems there is ALL of THIS (this life, these humans and non-humans, this world, this experience, this universe, hanging between birth and death). I believe Adi Da would say all of this is a matter of convention. Adi Da is very un-conventional, and so it is no surprise to me that some would be attracted to His un-conventional nature, while some would be offended by it. Adi Da even said this, didn’t he?

    As for Adi Da’s “position” changing over the years, I am not surprised at this either. When Bubba Free John said he was not an avatar, that “there could be avatars all over the yard…,” that may have been the case at that time. But as all human beings change over time, why shouldn’t Adi Da have changed over time? It seems to me that His “development” throughout His lifetime was simply part of the Incarnation process. At the same time He was born into the human circumstance, the physical form, subject to the same circumstance as every other human and non-human form on this planet. His Realization became more and more complete over the course of time in this conditional realm. The universe, Existence, Consciousness Itself is not, and cannot be, a static, fixed “thing.” The universe is an expanding process, not just an object. Of course, I cannot say this is, in fact, how it was with Adi Da… I admit I am speculating.

    When I contemplate matters such as duality/non-duality, for example, I am fully aware that I am using a mind that is completely subject to a conditional circumstance that reflects nothing but duality. Therefore, I am trying to contemplate non-duality with a dualistic brain/mind. (Am I saying this the right way?) It’s like a color-blind person attempting to imagine color.

    Meanwhile, as I contemplate such matters, I am also aware of what a mass of stupidity humanity is (and, again, I include myself in this). I say humanity is stupid based on the vulgar, unintelligent, and destructive path humanity is on. There are human beings in this world who kill life without flinching, who cause tremendous suffering, who want to drag the common man down a road of history most of us do not want to go. Adi Da said in The Transmission of Doubt something like: “Those who rule the world are outnumbered by billions of people…” So why the hell are those who rule the world ruling the world? This is a tremendously important matter, don’t you think? And WHO in this world is going to kick our asses enough to actually do something about it, before it’s too late? Maybe it is already too late… J Krishnamurti used to say that if people (meaning all people) really loved their children, they would see to it that the world was a safe place. This seems like common sense, eh? So, what the hell is going on? Where is the common sense?

    Adi Da often said that he could be an offense. But I cannot say Adi Da is an offense the way 99% of our world leaders are, but most of those people are accepted, glamorized, applauded, re-elected, and work to elevate themselves at the expense of the “ordinary man.” Or they are just monstrous dictators. This is the truly serious matter, IMO. We sit around contemplating what Adi Da said, or what Ramana Maharshi said, or what Jesus Christ, Krishna, Buddha, etc. said, but is that doing us (or the world) any good?
    I love, admire and respect the great spiritual adepts, but they have not been able to crack human stupidity. They are not the problem. Adi Da is not the problem. Ramana is not the problem. Jesus is not the problem. You tell me what the problem is…

  279. NC

    I really appreciate following the debate between you guys. I kind of feel like I’ve snuck into the men’s tent, I hope my more intuitive perspective isn’t an intrusion….
    That being said, I always had the experience that Ramana was a doorway to Samaraj Adi Da’s teaching. When I would meditate on his form, I felt a great compassion, and gentleness. With Samaraj Adi Da, it there was that, but also a kind of oblivion. The “I” at times would be obliterated, and I would experience wild sobbing accompanied with amazing gratitude. It was like my whole being was being washed of all karmic knots.
    I liked watching the Ramana Maharshi videos Atiasrama, and liked this particular one:

    I especially like his quotes on inquiry.
    I hope we can continue this dialogue in some way, if not here. I really think it is extremely useful.

  280. Former Follower and Critic

    Akasha,

    I don’t think that Da’s sympathies for Tantric Kashmir Shavism were that secret, since he considered himself a link in the Siddha Yoga chain at the time he wrote KOL, but I have no objection to your basic point. The reality is that Da had no experience with self-inquiry. He did keep a copy of the Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi with him during summer prior to his claimed enlightenment but had his own methods. His essays from that period show that he began to develop his own form of inquiry, “avoiding relationship”, instead. What we see in his account of his claimed enlightenment is a visionary tantric event, and Da seems to have wanted both worlds, recognition as a tantric realizer and as a jnani. Early sources disclose that originally Da felt he was influenced by both Nityananda and Ramana and was somewhat fluid on that issue. But it needs to be said that there is no sense in which a jnani at the level of Ramana Maharshi sees any level of separation between phenomena and Consciousness. These distinctions arise among philosophers among these schools of thought and not at the level of jnana itself, whether from bhakti nor not. As for a realized Daist, I have yet to see one.

  281. Aro

    Feel4God says

    “Ramana Maharshi’s Teaching is rooted in the Advaita Vedanta tradition, and whenever I have read it, I continually see that it is based on the presumption of seeking a way out of egoic suffering via liberation in the Self at the heart on the right. Yes, I know there are some quotes that are strictly non-dual, but the internalized method of tracing the I-thought back to its Source, and most of Ramana’s instructions about the practice, still communicate a sense that the seeker is in dilemma and the goal is liberation via that practice.”

    The Maharshi’s instructions on practice are really not dilemma-based. Conradg has addressed this in his recent posting. You should read Maharshi again with an open mind.

    From “Talks…”

    D. There are said to be six organs of different colors in the chest, of which the Heart is said to be two finger-breadths to the right of the middle line. But the Heart is also formless. Should we then imagine it to have a shape and meditate on it?

    M. No. Only the quest “who am I” is necessary. …Investigation of “I” is the point and not meditation on the heart-center. There is nothing like within or without. Both mean either the same or nothing. p116

    Maharshi on meditation:

    D. How is meditation to be practiced?
    M. Meditation is, truly speaking, Atmanishtha (to be fixed on the Self.) But when thoughts cross the mind and an effort is made to eliminate them the effort is termed meditation. Atmanishtha is your real nature. Remain as you are. That is the aim.
    D. But thoughts come up. Is our efforts meant to eliminate thoughts only?
    M. Yes. …Meditation is only negative in effect, inasmuch as thoughts are kept away.
    D. It is said Atma samstham manah krtva (fixing the mind in the Self). But the Self is unthinkable.
    M. Why do you wish to meditate at all? Because you wish to do so you are told Atma samstham manah krtva. Why do you not remain as you are without meditating? What is that manah (mind)? When all thoughts are eliminated it becomes Atma samstha (fixed in the Self.) p256-7

    Meditation is your true nature now. You call it meditation because there are other thoughts distracting you. When these thoughts are dispelled, you remain alone, i.e., in the state of meditation free from thoughts; and that is your real nature which you are now attempting to gain by keeping away other thoughts. Such keeping away of other thoughts is now called meditation. When the practice becomes firm, the real nature shows itself as the true meditation. p269

    Mrs. Kelly desired to know how she should best learn to meditate.
    Sri Bhagavan asked if she has made japa (rolling beads as Roman Catholics do). She said: “No.”

    M. Have you thought of God, His qualities, etc.?

    D. I have read, talked about such themes.

    M. Well, if the same be revolved in the mind without open expression through the senses it is meditation…

    Long for it intensely so that the mind melts in devotion. After the camphor burns away there is no residue left. The mind is the camphor; when it has resolved itself into the Self without leaving the slightest trace behind, it is realization of the Self. p133

  282. Dakini

    THE FINAL QUESTION

    I think a number of people both in and out of Adidam make their way to what I call “the final question.” Once you’ve spent enough time around Adi Da to see that he is very messed up and selfish, and that the people he chose to be closest to him are corrupt as hell, and that he undermines all of the group’s functional efforts through bad decisions and immaturity, the moment of truth comes.

    Up to that point you’ve accepted that he was a superior, Enlightened being as reflected in the books and as he appeared in all the formal occasions you heard him talk or meditated with him. You always imagined those closest to him really were more spiritually advanced than you and your friends, because that’s what you were told. But once you get close enough to Adi Da the disconnect between the former image you held and the bald facts about Adi Da’s private persona looms large.

    There were several people I knew in Adidam who got to this point around the time I did. This is the time when you have to either commit yourself to a form of illogical insanity and cognitive dissonance that ignores the obvious in order to remain a formal devotee and “believer”, OR you tell yourself that Adi Da’s true function is to bring you to the point where you see through the madness and physically leave him and Adidam (but continue a spiritual relationship with him), OR you conclude he and Adidam are just as messed up as they appear and chuck it all.

    At first I made choice b, which is to assume that the point of the whole ordeal was to burn out my spiritual search and end my seeking, which it did. I saw my departure as a sign that I finally “got it” but didn’t question my relationship to Adi Da nor his status as Divine Realizer and agent of awakening. Another person I was close to came to the same conclusion and left, but a few others somehow remained devotees (at a big price psychologically, IMO).

    After I was out of the group for a few years and regained my equanimity and self-confidence, it became clear that there was no good reason to assume that anything was going on around Adi Da other than what appeared to be the case on the surface. Why opt for tortured explanations when there was a very simple one.

    As more time passed outside Adidam, and I spent time with people who were more focused on spiritual practice than on cultic drama, any confusion I had about Adi Da passed away. That man was nowhere near Enlightened, nor was he even a mature human being. The same goes for those around him I got to know (but of course I didn’t know every one of them).

    Adi Da and his devotees were all addicted to personal drama and the “spiritual search,” and were hungry for each others’ attention. Adi Da and his intimates gave up their personal integrity in order to perpetuate the game they were playing and to keep the power it gave them within the culture they created.

    Lots of games, lots of politics, lots of people and resources used up, all in furtherance of Adi Da’s one-upsmanship.

    I find it very amusing that people on this website (pro and con)are spending so much time debating Da’s ideas about rare and obscure internal phenomena that we can’t be sure even exist. As if THAT were the true test of Adi Da’s worth as a human and a teacher, and as if we had to rely on something so hidden and unknowable as that for guidance in our lives and practice.

    Adi Da must be smiling in his grave to see that his smoke screen is still functioning. He’s still got people staring in the clouds, looking at his mere words and pondering speculative fantasies, distracted from the obvious and real things that matter in life — human ethics, human love, human responsibility. These are the areas where Adi Da failed miserably and THIS is what shall be his legacy.

    Namaste,
    Dakini

  283. Former Follower and Critic

    Feel4God,

    It is normally not that hard to communicate an accurate picture of Ramana Maharshi’s life and teaching to the broad audience of non-dualists who have explored a variety of non-dualist paths. Ramana Maharshi is widely recognized across many different schools to have been fully realized. It is much more difficult here when the communications offer information that conflicts with the personal view of the group’s guru, in this case Da, who does not seem inclined to accurately present Ramama Maharshi and who redefines terms and concepts to accomplish this.

    It is understandable that some of those whose familiarity with Ramana Maharshi is based on what was readily available in the U.S in the 1970s might find Da’s assessment similar to their own. David Godman, the former librarian and contemporary author, has outlined some of the reasons for that, which include use of a more formalized english style that did not accurately convey the atmosphere, personal beliefs of the editor, limitations on the ready availabilty of some information, limitations on understanding the different cultures, and sometimes, nuances difficult to translate. But there is a wide body of material out there now, for starters the excellent chapters on Ramana Maharshi’s teachings and misconceptions found in “Be As You Are”, along with the “Power of the Presence” series, and it does not really support the contentions made by Da once you strip away the redefinitions. I realize you found confirmations of beliefs you had or acquired about Ramana Maharshi through Da, such as the opening of the heart on the right. All I can say about that is that as Ramana Maharshi warned and as Papaji said, the mind tend to visualize and create such conditional samadhi experiences under such circumstances but that is not the same as an experience of Being As the Heart.

    You mention that these enlightened devotees were all enlightened after Ramana Maharshi had died. As Conradg points out, a good list of Ramana’s enlightened human devotees (there were proportedly four animals he enlightened as well, including Lakshmi the cow) would include:

    Annamalai Swami
    Poonja Swami (Papaji)
    Sri Muruganar
    Sadhu Om
    Ramana’s Mother (at her death)
    Lakshmana Swami
    Mastan (a muslim devotee)
    Swami Ram Das
    Sri Matha

    Several of these were enlightened while Ramana Maharshi was still in body. For example, in the dated material I quoted, Sri Matha was enlightened in 1938 at the age of 32. And again, there were undoubtably more we do not know about because Ramana Maharshi did not see any need to publicize such things, and the Presence did all the work necessary regardless. By comparison, Da has been teaching since 1970 and after 38 years of world wide publicity still failed to draw the recognition of a single person considered a jnani, nor did his ministry result in any one who anyone outside of Adidam would even consider to be a jnani.

    I have said that I think Da was correct and acknowleged his lack of confirmation when he made this famous statement:

    “…What do I know? This could just be an aberration. Must be. No one agrees with me. I’ve never met anyone who agreed with me. I’ve talked to many people. I’ve talked to many teachers, and none of them agrees with me. They all tell me that I’m mad, that I’m undeveloped. So that must be so. If you consult the usual books they won’t tell you such a thing. I’ve read them all myself….I’ve never listened to anyone. Perhaps I should have!”

    Therefore, Conrad’s suggested explanation is not that implausible in my view:

    “In fact, it only raises the question as to whether Da himself has actually realized what he claims or describes, or if he is not merely one of those people mentioned by Ramana and his devotees, such as Lakshmana, who did in fact experience the “fall” into the heart, but whose “I”-thought did not perish, but rose up again, re-creating the mind once again, but in Da’s case, with a certain energetic conviction about his own self-realization. It is mentioned in the literature around Ramana that this does indeed happen to a number of people, who think themselves thereby enlightened, when in fact it is the ego that is protecting itself by creating a sense of Divinity about itself, and rendering itself immune to the real process of realization. If one studies the actual pattern of Adi Da’s life and mind, I think this is the more likely explanation. His obsession with Amrita Nadi, and his need to make himself out to be the unique realizer of this, could well be due to his own failure to surrender fully in the heart, and to have instead risen as the ego back out of the heart into the mind, confusing this with the regenerated form of Amrita Nadi described by Ramana. It would also explain Da’s obsessive megalomaniacal fixation upon himself, and his desire to make himself the perfectly Divinized ego of a whole new religion. It’s not that Adi Da didn’t come close, of course, it’s just not good enough, and ends up creating even greater illusions for the ego to overcome. But in that sense it’s a useful example for all of us of how the ego can create endless diversions to avoid.”

    Support for this assessment is readily found. Realization is not the only explanation for what is observed about Da. When asked about the unnamed teacher who taught what was found in the Four Fundamental questions, Nisagadatta implied the teacher, obviously Da, was not realized. If you ask some teachers associated with the Ramana tradition privately, they point to a number of signs that imply Da is not realized. Similarly, Ammachi has pointed to those resembling Da as not being realized, but suffering from a peculiar effect of an expanded subtle ego. None of this is proof, of course, but it does illustrate the assessment of Da from those who would be in the best position to know whereas not a single jnani has recognized Da’s claims. So one making the statement Conradg has made is in very good company in doing so.

    Finally, Ramana Maharshi himself pointed out that while there were gradations among jnanis based on the apparent karmas of the vehicle, since the ego was dissolved for the jnani, there was no further doer left. In Da’s case, the doer was clearly evident. This evidence for an unresolved egoic mental function is further indicated by Da’s comment that after realizing the Heart, the energy stabilized as a current from above TO the Heart, and his emphasis on the proper practice being surrender to his crashing down from above. This realm, as Da himself once said, may be psychophysical but is only one of many and is by no means near the highest level. Such spatial references reflect higher subtle activity, not realization. The Heart is what IS and there is nothing “outside”, nor has there ever been. Thus Amrita Nadi is not outside the Heart, either. One can find a very good fit here with the assessments of various jnanis regarding Da and it is not necesary to presume Da’s enlightenment to explain what I have observed about him and his teaching. Da devotees of course have a totally opposite POV and that is fine, it is simply an area we can’t agree.

    My final point is that in regard to practice, a practice done in orientation to Da as the final spiritual authority on everything with the resulting mental and energetic expectations affects the results of the practice, compared with following the actual instructions of those jnanis like Ramana regarding those practices. I found that out myself when I initially let Da inordinately influence my understanding of Ramana Maharshi’s teaching prior to realizing what was subsequently revealed to me based on samadhi experiences I now realize were not what I thought. So I understand quite well that your understanding and results will be different. However, efforts are never totally wasted and I hope you derive some benefit from your experiments because the practice does work. Some people frankly desire a commanding guru to explain everything for them and a descending force to work on them, whereas I find Ramana Maharshi reveals everything I need in the most appropriate and graceful manner without all that. My relative frustratation remains that it is necessary to have a better understanding of Ramana Maharshi to even grasp the points being made in these discussions, but hopefully this discussion will illuminate the points at issue.

  284. Brian Emmett

    Hello Everyone

    I have enjoyed reading everyone’s comments on this Blog. The funny thing is that even though I am usually quite intrigued by sorting out shit from shinola regarding spirituality and teachers, the overwhelming preponderance of my response to all of you, Daists and Exs, is a deep appreciation for you all as people. I would just love to know if I am hearing the voice of old friends from my days in Adidam (1976-2006). I would love to see all your faces! And I love everyone’s integrity and commitment to the Truth, as best they see it. Simply Beautiful!
    On another light note I would like to invite you all to participate in a project that myself and Eddie Blatt are creating. This crowd seems like an ideal lot to contribute to this endeavor.
    We are creating a book comprised of stories from students of EVERY religious or spiritual tradition, who want to share a story or two about how foolish or bizarre they (mis)behaved in the course of attempting a spiritual life. We are definitely NOT interested in tearing anyone or any system down with this book, only laughing at ourselves – the joke is on us.

    It seems to us that that is a very important energy or connection to advance out in the World at this late date: have a laugh at how good hearted, but absurd, you behaved under the pressure of a spiritual regime. And even more: what do you NOW understand about yourself that you certainly didn’t understand back then!
    One of the interesting issues that has arisen for us is to find that many people can’t see anything whatsoever humorous or funny about their past experiences! They tend to either regard their experiences as either sacrosanct and totally precious, or else as a traumatic and a disaster, best forgotten about.
    So, many times we will listen to a few stories from a person and actually have to point out how hilarious many of the incidents of their lives were. Then, they may indeed “get it”. That is exactly why this book could arguably be of some genuine service to others. It can begin a process bringing some humor to aspects of our lives that have gone unexamined for years.

    Of course we are offering a royalty to anyone whose story is published. You can learn more and decide whether this project might interest you by going to our beautiful new web site at http://laughinggodonline.com . Stories may be submitted in recorded audio form or written (please see the web site for more details)

    Also, if you know a friend who might have a great story and be interested, please let them know.

    Sincerely,
    Brian Emmett
    Now of Byron Bay, Australia
    Then of New York and Boston

  285. no124c41

    Thank you, Dakini. You write:

    “This is the time when you have to either commit yourself to a form of illogical insanity and cognitive dissonance that ignores the obvious in order to remain a formal devotee and “believer”, OR you tell yourself that Adi Da’s true function is to bring you to the point where you see through the madness and physically leave him and Adidam (but continue a spiritual relationship with him), OR you conclude he and Adidam are just as messed up as they appear and chuck it all.”

    I was in the first “OR” when I left, and I have since gradually concluded that Adi Da was a fraud. That should take me to the point of chucking it all and being done with it, but my whole frame of reference is based on Daist concepts. I can’t not think in terms like conductivity and the conscious process, Narcissus, re-cognition, divine ignorance, etc. Some of the concepts remain valid, and some have fizzled out, but that’s the programming I’m left with, even though I have clearly left the community and Adi Da. Of course I find the counterparts of the teaching all over the traditions, and find nothing “Only by Me Given”, (what a toxic, self-contradicting concept!).
    I know that the spiritual mind I am carrying is irrelevant to whatever realization may occur, but my mind is definitely re-configured vintage Daist! Every day I think in terms of the teaching in some way or another, so hopefully I am close to separating the wheat from the chaff by now, but I’m still surprised at the stuff that’s there sometimes. That’s one reason reading the posts here can be good for me.
    Anyway, what really matters is the simple matter of who am I? Maybe I am lacking in discernment, but I just don’t get levels of enlightenment. I don’t see a 6th stage realization that is not 7th stage. As Shiva has said, how do you get more enlightened than enlightened? “Realizers” say “I am That”, and Adi Da says “I am More That”. Apparently there is more to realization than realizing That, awakening as your true identity without separation. It makes no sense to me at all!

  286. Stuart

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    > Ramana Maharshi is widely recognized across many
    > different schools to have been fully realized.

    Ramana offered a very simple practice: “What am I?” Anyone, at any time, can look into this question for themselves. We can actually do this, right now, just inquire into this “I.”

    This inquiry doesn’t require holding any ideas or opinions about Ramana. Making ideas about anyone else, about who is or isn’t “fully realized,” or holding ideas about what “realized” means… is all irrelevent to just seriously and sincerely exploring the great question for ourselves.

    The option is always open: leave aside all ideas about Ramana, about Da, about “realized”… letting go of all of it, and just giving rise to “What am I?”

    Stuart

    http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

  287. Michael

    Do you presume to know who is Enlightened and who is not, or are you just convinced, or do you have proof, or does it take one to know one?

    If I conclude that “X” is Enlightened, and “X” says “Y” is Enlightened, do I agree? And now “Y” gets my approval?

    If I conclude that “X” is Enlightened and “X” says “Y” is not Enlightened, do I agree? And so “Y” is rejected?

    And if I conclude “X” is Enlightened, upon what am I basing my conclusion that he/she is Enlightened anyway? Would that not imply that I am presuming the ability via myself to conclude who is Enlightened and who is not… which, it seems to me, would be a conclusion that I, myself, am Enlightened? Does it take one to know one?

    One person says, “The Truth, or God, is your inner Self,” while another person says, “There is no inner (at all).” One says, “God is within,” while another says, “There is no within.” Isn’t this duality in the flesh, fully functional in the material world?
    We might be able to conclude that mankind is unEnlightened based upon the condition of the human world, with all its negative, angry, destructive tendencies… we MIGHT conclude that. Or perhaps this is simply how it is in this realm, and we are all in the box and we only imagine and invent what is outside the box. Again, color-blinded attempting to define color… and with such intensity as to be an authority, to boot!
    I am an authority on nothing, when it comes to Existence. I have certain feelings and beliefs (which I have pointed toward), but these are MY feelings and beliefs, none of which I can “prove,” and none of which may have anything to do with the Truth of this realm. What do I know, really? What does any of us know, REALLY?
    What I know today, I did not necessarily know in the past, I may not know in the future, or after death, or maybe I’ll just change my mind. So, then, of what value is “what I know” if it is not something I would know throughout all Infinity and all Eternity? Would that not be the sort of evidence one requires in order to conclude any value to “what I know?” If I am going to speak with authority about matters such as who is Enlightened, who is not, who is real, who is false… well, who set “me” up as such an authority…. other than “me?”

    Questioning is an important part of our endeavor, I think. Criticism, however, is not always an aspect of questioning. Criticism is either a form of investigation and analysis (according to its definition), or it is a bunch of comments about something we dislike. Where does criticism originate — from point-of-view, or from the object of criticism? Questioning is the means by which we try to understand something, isn’t it? So, is criticism also a means of trying to understand, or is it just about finding fault?

    I’m not a Rajneesh follower, but I like the title of one of his books: “All Your Answers Questioned.” When it comes to matters of Existence, Spirituality, Enlightenment, and God, any conclusions I have deserve to be questioned.
    So do yours.

  288. ringer

    for peter: Sweet!

    “A spiritual teacher worth his (or her) salt is in the dis-illusion-ment business. If you’re not disillusioned with your spiritual teacher, he isn’t doing his job.”

  289. JP

    No one absolutely knows who Adi Da really was, what he did, and why he did what he did with his life and its consequences. There are heaps of concepts, presumptions, assumptions and speculation, even from those who knew him well personally, but the bottom-line is, we really don’t know. As he so adroitly said, “We don’t know what a single thing is.” Good advice as we move forward with individual and collective conscious unfoldment and revelation. Eyes wide open, arms spread wide open, heart bursting with no-boundaries, we embrace all and thus all will embrace us. Namaste and Blessings.

  290. shiva

    peter said:

    “There is no adi da.
    There is no ramana.”

    beautiful. thank you. a much needed reminder of what NON-DUALITY (and this blog) is all about!

    why would any teacher talk to his/her students as if they were separate beings who need to achieve something? as if “they” need to do some “right-life disciplines”, practices, breathings, etc..
    how could THAT, which is always already the case, be achieved through anything?
    why would any serious teacher talk this way (and thereby re-inforcing the illusion), UNLESS he believed it himself?

  291. Conradg

    Feel4God,

    No, I haven’t read any of Da’s recent works, except some of the “Not Two” book, which I thought was pretty lousy, but I’m opening to considering the new books. Personally I’m just not that into studying books anymore, I find direct practice more interesting, and Da’s books leave me rather cold now, as if I’m looking at my old high school textbooks. I honestly don’t spend much time studying Ramana or Advaita in general, I feel that it either makes its point in you and comes alive in you, or it doesn’t, endless study won’t do the trick. (Although studying it until it makes that point come clear may take a little while).

    “I don’t really understand how you can draw your final “mostly likely” conclusions given all evidence to the contrary with Adi Da – particularly the brilliant consistency with which He not only describes but further elaborates these processes, and most importantly, His constant absolute characteristic of Conscious Light and Love-Bliss, and His incredibly creative participation in every aspect of life. Regardless, the Way of Adidam has nothing to do with the mind of belief or doubt – we still must transcend ourselves and go through these processes just the same.”

    But this is precisely why I consider my “take” on Da to be a reasonable explanation (I don’t pretend to actually know what’s up with anyone, nor past a point do I really much care). I simply don’t find his descriptions of these processes either consistent, or brilliant, or even true. As for his “incredibly creative participation in every aspect of life”, isn’t that the crux of the problem? Da sets himself up as the only “seventh stage” realizer, and his offers his own life as the demonstration of that, and other lives, like Ramana’s he downgrades as “sixth stage inversion away from the body”.

    But what exactly has Da demonstrated? Shall I go down the list? Okay, we have long term alcoholism, drinking huge amounts of hard liquor on a daily basis for at least 4/5ths of over two decades, until he was forced by an intervention of friends and doctors to stop, after which time he switched over to boatloads of marijuana. There’s his long use of narcotics, of amyl nitrate “poppers” during sex to heighton the pleasurable experience of orgasm, which he used for many years and which most likely led to his early-onset glaucoma and the near blindness he suffered back in 1995. There’s the cigarette addiction, the food addictions, the gluttony, and so on. Do you really think all that extra weight Da carried for so many years was “yogic siddhi”? Do you have any idea what he ate on a fairly regular basis for most of those years? A friend of mine who was there at Lopez Island on the night of his “translation” event told me that if he’d eaten what Da had for dinner that night, he’d have died too.

    So, is all this world-class indulgence in pleasure-giving toxic addictions some special sign of seventh stage realization, of “creative participation in life”. Let’s add sexual indulgence to the list, screwing as much as possible, and claiming that he “needed” all this sex in order to keep himself in the body. I thought it was Ramana who was tending to disassociate from the body? In reality, it was Da who was always saying that he was about to die if he didn’t get some pleasurable thing to keep him associated with the body. He needed sex and money and art work and all kinds of things, and he told his devotees if he didn’t get them, he would leave the body. Is that the seventh stage disposition and sign?

    What about the anti-depressants Adi Da was on for years and years? How is being depressed a sign of seventh stage realization. I recall him yelling at his doctors, I’m depressed, give me anti-depressants! What exactly is so depressing about “seventh stage realization” that it requires anti-depressants? And then we can get into the power games he played, the abuses, the “lessons” that constantly involved humiliating his devotees in deeply hurtful ways. How was that “seventh stage”? In one infamous example, a woman confesses to him that she was sexually abused as a child, so Da tells her to give blow jobs to three of his male devotees, and then he fucks her himself, then has her left alone in the parking lot of the MOA to cry her eyes out all night. Gee, somehow this didn’t actually cure her of her “emotional sexual problem”. What a surprise. The thing is, how could a seventh stager not realize this wasn’t going to work, that it would tend up turning the woman away from Da and Adidam?

    Which brings to mind the whole emotional-sexual theater around Da, which consisted for the most part of people fucking other people’s spouses in front of each other at Da’s direction, and Da often fucking the women in private as he pleased, creating huge turmoil in everyone’s relationship. This went on for the better part of thirty years, before Da finally admitted that it just hadn’t worked. Well, again, what a genius. I mean, it takes thirty years to figure out that this is a stupid way to bring about spiritual maturity in people? How many times does something like that have to fail to realize it’s useless? I’m a liberal-minded guy, I can grasp the experimental idea, but come on, try something like that a few times, and it becomes clear it doesn’t work. How is it that a seventh stager can’t figure that out in less than thirty years? It kind of makes one suspect there were other motives there than spiritual maturation.

    And that doesn’t even end the list, I’m just running out of patience. The point is, this whole claim of a superior realization on Da’s part isn’t backed up by a superior life. Instead we get a crazy self-indulgent life that was hugely self-destructive and other-destructive, in ways that show little signs of any spiritual wisdom, much less “Amrita Nadi”. Now I’ll grant that there’s a more positive side to Da, he wasn’t all monster, but still, where’s the sign of real equanimity and balance, the hallmarks of truly transcendental realization. I knew many of the healers who treated Da, and they commented on how little bodily equanimity he had, that he was very messed up and disturbed, and that it was very difficult to treat him because he was always stirring up his own mess and never able to be truly relaxed and free of tension. How is that seventh stage?

    So as you yourself say, the proof is in the practice, the demonstration in life, and that is where Da seems to fail most grandly. I can give him credit for failing grandly, rather than just mediocrely, but I can’t give him much credit for actually succeeding in demonstrating a truly higher spiritual realization. It seems he simply fell short in life, and I think this strongly suggests his realization fell short as well. Yes, he was a powerful yogi, a great spiritual force in many ways, I don’t deny that. But being a powerful yogi is not the same as being a genuine jnani who radiates true peace.

    In regards to your experiments with Self-enquiry, I’d suggest based on your description that you’re not actually doing self-enquiry, but it’s hard to critique someone else’s practice. Meditating on the heart on the right is not self-enquiry, nor does self-enquiry lead to such a practice. If you find yourself meditating on the heart on the right, self-enquiry simply asks, “Who is meditating on the heart on the right?”, or “To whom does this experience arise”. As you describe it, the heart on the right is merely a physical object, not the actual “heart”. Ramana specifically criticized people who practiced self-enquiry as you describe it, as the search for some objective “self” located in some “place”. The practice of self-enquiry is about the feeling of self, which is not located in the right side of the chest, it is not located in any “place” at all. Who is observing this feeling on the right of the chest? That is the sense of self you should be feeling. When you say that self-enquiry involves some kind of motivated searching, I think you are simply projecting your own motivated searching onto it. If motivated searching arises in self-enquiry, self-equiry simply asks “who is seeking”, or “to whom is this desire arising?” Again, there is no search for an answer, but a constant redirecting of attention to the conscious awareness that is always there observing all thoughts and actions and desires. This is not directed towards any goal, but merely the inspection of what we already are in consciousness.

    Another problem with your description of self-enquiry, and your description of “searchless beholding” is that you seem to identify these activities with whatever bliss or love you feel as a result of these practices. Such bliss and love will arise if you practice self-enquiry as well – they certainly do for me – but self-enquiry is not aimed at such experiences, rather it aims at the underlying reality that is already the case. Experiences of bliss and love are perhaps a sign of this underlying reality, but if one focuses on those experiences, one has lost the thread of present reality itself, which is what self-enquiry is aimed at. Who is having these experiences? Thinking that because one is having blissful experiences, one is doing this practice right, and that if one is not getting blissful experiences, one is doing it wrong, is a sheer beginner’s mistake. (I think even Da would agree). Experiences that come and go are conditional products of the mind. Self-enquiry is not much concerned with what experiences come and go, but what the underlying reality behind all experience is, namely, the one who observes them all. The observer of experience does not come and go, that observer is always present. If you bliss and love comes and goes, it is conditional bliss and love, not the real thing. So enquiry merely re-directs our attention towards the underlying observer of all these experiences, because that observer does not come and go. Discovering the nature of that observer, the source of the observer, that is what realization is about, not basking in experiences of love-bliss. Which is why devotees don’t realize much of anything, they are so addicted to experiencing love-bliss, addicted to the experiences of Darshan, etc.

    I’m not knocking love-bliss, btw. Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em, is what I say. But pretending that this is the way to judge self-enquiry, or any other practice, is nuts.

    “In short, I found the I-thought approach as meditation on me and the other as meditation on what Is already the case. However, I will test this again very soon – unless of course I get infilled with Love-Bliss right away! “

    Well, this is one of the taboos that needs to be broken. I felt the same taboo while I was in Adidam. How outrageous, meditating on oneself! But there were questions that always intrigued me in Adidam, such as “what is this self-contraction he always talks about?” Towards the end of my time in Adidam, I began to understand the self-contraction very directly, as this simple feeling of self. And Da had always said that we should inspect the self-contraction, so I did that. And ended up essentially practicing self-enquiry, such that after I left, and began reading Ramana again, I finally understood what Ramana was talking about, what self-enquiry was. It was the practice that was taboo in Adidam, of actually inspecting the ego as it was, as it was actually felt and experienced by us. Ramana made this exceptionally clear, and despite my resistance due to the teachings of Adi Da that labelled this “narcissism”, I found that it was quite liberating.

    It works simply because there actually is not ego to meditate on, and so if we inspect the feeling of self directly, we do not find anything real there. There is no object that is the self, there is no “heart on the right” that is the place of self, that’s a complete misunderstanding of Ramana’s teaching. Instead, meditating on the feeling of self dissolves the feeling of self, unmasking it, making it more and more clear that there is no such thing, and that what is beyond and prior to this sense of self is the underlying reality that is always there, is always love, is always the heart, and is “who” we really are. The taboo against inspecting the feeling of self is erected by the ego, which is terrified that we will see through its game. It erects all kinds of spiritual taboos against this, and we have to have the courage to go past those fears and unmask this illusory pretender.

    The Wizard of Oz will tell you not to look there, he will authoritatively tell you only to look at his magnificent form, his great and glorious facade, and not to look behind the curtain, but the serious devotee must have the courage to do so, and bring down the whole game. When that happens, when you see through these Gurus who put themselves in the way of things, who insist that we meditate on them rather than pull the curtain aside and see the foolishness of the whole game they are playing on us, then there is some real humor and freedom. And that requires us to examine ourselves at last, and first and foremost, rather than concerning ourselves with these magical wizards and their fascinating experiences of bliss and awe. As Buddha said, we must be refuges unto ourselves, and work out our own salvation.

  292. soulsurfer

    I sat with John Wheeler last night. Hes nice guy, talks about non dual truth, and plays guitar.I was with sailor Bob at some point. I liked him, very ordinary
    and responsive.Ill probably go back.
    best regards to you all.

  293. Feel4God

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “Support for this assessment is readily found. Realization is not the only explanation for what is observed about Da. When asked about the unnamed teacher who taught what was found in the Four Fundamental questions, Nisagadatta implied the teacher, obviously Da, was not realized.”

    “implied?” This is at best very vague to post even here. This could have been an interpretation by a follower (critical of Adi Da) who might readily jump to some desired conclusion, and the same for the rest of your anecdotal mentionings. Are there any transcripts with clear logic in them along these lines? Otherwise, to even be making these unfounded statements mainly indicates to me that you are trying to criticize/discredit Adi Da and His work with devotees for personal, emotional reasons on your part.

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “If you ask some teachers associated with the Ramana tradition privately, they point to a number of signs that imply Da is not realized. Similarly, Ammachi has pointed to those resembling Da as not being realized, but suffering from a peculiar effect of an expanded subtle ego.”

    There’s that word “imply” again. This sure is a stretch here too. Unless you actually have something concrete from a realizer, to bring it up here this way, is weak at best. It sounds to me like you have a extreme case of being “hyper-critical”.

    Former Follower and Critic quoting Adi Da in a very lively and playful moment during a talk with devotees:
    “…What do I know? This could just be an aberration. Must be. No one agrees with me. I’ve never met anyone who agreed with me. I’ve talked to many people. I’ve talked to many teachers, and none of them agrees with me. They all tell me that I’m mad, that I’m undeveloped. So that must be so. If you consult the usual books they won’t tell you such a thing. I’ve read them all myself….I’ve never listened to anyone. Perhaps I should have!”

    You are totally taking this talk out of context – even in view of your earlier posted logic. I was there for this talk and have a much different idea about it than you, but this is such a stretch on your part, I will leave it at that.

    You also skipped over considering all the 7th Stage Processes and Teachings that only Adi Da has ever said. His Avataric Way is unique and ultimately most effective given it is beyond all conditionality from the beginning. This Teaching and Process have never been manifested in any of the traditions.

    By the way, are there other areas in the Seven Stages of Life that you also vehemently do not accept? Do you see any truth in what Adi Da has said about the map of the whole body-mind and the Seven Stages – e.g., the 4th and 5th Stages?

    Also, I do know the difference between descending and ascending energies/spiritual phenomena versus what Adi Da grants when we behold Him beyond all egoic seeking. It is nothing like those experiences which I have had – It is Love-Bliss Reality – not subtle, not causal – but absolutely direct Reality felt as inherent Heart Love-Bliss. The heart recognizes it. It is obvious in all kinds of ways, mainly tacitly. And again, His photos show it so clearly, His eyes, His Being… It is completely obvious to me. If not to you, that is something you might inspect further too.

    Michael Says:
    “I’m not a Rajneesh follower, but I like the title of one of his books: “All Your Answers Questioned.” When it comes to matters of Existence, Spirituality, Enlightenment, and God, any conclusions I have deserve to be questioned.
    So do yours.”

    I really appreciate this, Michael. Everything must be considered fully before incorporating it or discarding it. And, after enough consideration, firm conclusions can be drawn. However, regarding direct egoless contact with the Acausal Divine Reality, it is self-evident and self-validating in my “experience”.

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “I hope you derive some benefit from your experiments because the practice does work. Some people frankly desire a commanding guru to explain everything for them and a descending force to work on them…”

    Please understand that I never said the practices given by Sri Ramana Maharshi do not work. I also have no reason to disbelieve that some of His devotees were Self-realized. But the fact that during His physical lifetime Ramana Maharshi never acknowledged anyone other than His dying mother and His favorite cow is interesting. This could also be a good topic for discussion in light of Adi Da’s similar approach and His physical departure – and how His Ruchira Shaktipat has become even more magnified now for so many devotees. Could this have also happened with Ramana’s devotees and that is why there were several more realizers after His Mahasamadhi?

    From what I know (second hand), Adi Da praised Ramana for staying alive so long through very severe pain and suffering. Even though Ramana could have clearly just let the body go yogically, He chose to stay as long as it held out. Adi Da said something along the lines of this allowed Ramana’s Blessing Presence to more fully remain with His devotees rather than any of His energy being used for an intentional yogic departure.

    Regardless of whether there is a long list of enlightened Daists or not, Adi Da’s Teaching is being authenticated by some in the advanced stages (the “Perfect Practice”) – and many people have “experienced” Adi Da exactly as He describes in the preliminary “Perfect Knowledge” Practice of egolessly beholding Him amd “experiencing” His “Tangible Divine Avataric Transcendental Spiritual Transmission.” When this occurs, it is self-evident as the Acausal Truth beyond all experience.

    Former Follower and Critic Says:
    “…whereas I find Ramana Maharshi reveals everything I need in the most appropriate and graceful manner without all that.””

    I am happy that this is the case for you. Again, I love Sri Ramana Maharshi and His Teachings and certainly am not in any position to be critical of such a Self-Realized One. He just is not my Spiritual Master, nor did I find the process of “Self-enquiry” as direct and as immediately effective in beholding the Acausal Divine Reality that is Adi Da and His inherent Love-Bliss.

    So Former Follower and Critic, what is your actual practice and “experience” of the Self now?

    Conrad Says:
    “The old lightmind forum used to be pretty wild and sometimes quite negative, but the new forum is quite small and pretty mild. Most people have pretty much walked away from the Adidam debate, and it just doesn’t have the same charge as it used to.”

    I looked again, and it is the same site I had written the above post about. I think what we are doing right here is fine with me – and if a better (neutral) alternative comes along, and we still have interest in posting about these matters, then great. It has slowed down here anyway, so I vote to wait and see.

    What I would find interesting would be to have a discussion about what people’s “meditative” practice is regardless of their approach. Also for that reason, this Nonduality blog is a more “wide-open” option/invitation than simply having just a Daism section under lightmind (or anywhere else).

    For example, it seems we have moved into that discussion to some extent here with Ramana’s Self-enquiry being considered.

  294. NC

    Feel for God, I would be willing to help set up a forum for discourse between devotees and ex-devotees. If you can get my email from the moderater here, I would be open to having a conversation about that.

  295. Former Follower and Critic

    Responding to some comments above:

    Michael says:

    “Do you presume to know who is Enlightened and who is not, or are you just convinced, or do you have proof, or does it take one to know one? If I conclude that “X” is Enlightened, and “X” says “Y” is Enlightened, do I agree? And now “Y” gets my approval? If I conclude that “X” is Enlightened and “X” says “Y” is not Enlightened, do I agree? And so “Y” is rejected?
    And if I conclude “X” is Enlightened, upon what am I basing my conclusion that he/she is Enlightened anyway? Would that not imply that I am presuming the ability via myself to conclude who is Enlightened and who is not… which, it seems to me, would be a conclusion that I, myself, am Enlightened? Does it take one to know one?”

    I would say that that is actually the problem the Da devotees face when so actively supporting his conclusions about the alleged deficiencies in the realizations of all others in history when their guru’s claims about his own realization have not been confirmed by anyone else who is more generally accepted as realized, something Da himself knew. Especially given Da’s wildly conflicting statements over time on this very subject, and significant issues with the accuracy of some of his statements.

    But it is true that the jnani tradition, including Ramana Maharshi, does conclude that a jnani can recognize another jnani. Therefore, the lack of endorsements and the specific implications Da is not enlightened from figures who are likely in a position to know are more significant than the opinions of devotees or critics. Furthermore, Ramana Maharshi does not say that those who are not enlightened are helpless in the matter and unable to discern reliable signs:

    =========
    Question: What are the marks of a real teacher (sadaguru)?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Steady abidance in the Self, looking at all with an equal eye, unshakable courage at all times, in all places and circumstances.

    Question: There are a number of spiritual teachers teaching
    various paths. Whom should one take for one’s Guru?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Choose that one where you find you get shanti (peace).

    Question: Should we not also consider his teachings?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: He who instructs an ardent seeker to do this or that is not a true master. The seeker is already afflicted by his activities and wants peace and rest. In other words he wants cessation of his activities. If a teacher tells him to do something in addition to, or in place of, his other activities, can that be a help to the seeker?

    Activity is creation. Activity is the destruction of one’s inherent happiness. If activity is advocated the adviser is not a master but a killer. In such circumstances either the Creator (Brahma) or death (Yama) may be said to have come in the guise of a master. Such a person cannot liberate the aspirant; he can only strengthen his fetters.

    Question: How is one to decide upon a proper Guru?…

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: …If you ask, “How to decide who is the Guru and what is his swarupa?”, he should be endowed with tranquillity, patience, forgiveness and other virtues; he should be capable of attracting others even with his eyes just as a magnet attracts iron; he should have a feeling of equality towards all…”

    Question: You have said that the jnani can be and is active, and deals with men and things. I have no doubt about it now. But you say at the same time that he sees no differences; to him all is one, he is always in the consciousness. If so, how does he deal with differences, with men, with things, which are surely different?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: He sees these differences as but appearances, he sees them as not separate from the true, the real, with which he is one…I have said that equality is the true sign of jnana. The very term equality implies the existence of differences. It is a unity that the jnani perceives in all differences, which I call equality. Equality does not mean ignorance of distinctions. When you have the realisation you can see that these differences are very superficial, that they are not at all substantial or permanent, and what is essential in all these appearances is the one truth, the real. That I call unity. You referred to sound, taste, form, smell, etc. True, the jnani appreciates the distinctions, but he always perceives and experiences the one reality in all of them. That is why he has no preferences. Whether he moves about, or talks, or acts, it is all the one reality in which he acts or moves or talks. He has nothing apart from the one supreme truth.

    Question: They say that the jnani conducts himself with absolute equality towards all?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes. “Friendship, kindness, happiness and such other bhavas (attitudes) become natural to them. Affection towards the good, kindness towards the helpless, happiness in doing good deeds, forgiveness towards the wicked, all such things are natural characteristics of the jnani.” (Patanjali, Yoga Sutras, 1:37).

    You ask about jnanis: they are the same in any state or condition, as they know the reality, the truth. In their daily routine of taking food, moving about and all the rest, they, the jnanis, act only for others. Not a single action is done for themselves. I have already told you many times just as there are people whose profession is to mourn for a fee, so also the jnanis do things for the sake of others with detachment, without themselves being affected by them.”

    Question: What are the fundamental tests for discovering men of great spirituality, since some are reported to behave like insane people?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The jnani’s mind is known only to the jnani. One must be a jnani oneself in order to understand another jnani. However, the peace of mind which permeates the saint’s atmosphere is the only means by which the seeker understands the greatness of the saint. His words or actions or appearance are no indication of his greatness, for they are ordinarily beyond the comprehension of common people.

    =========

    Taking all the above into consideration:

    If the best argument that can be made is that we have no way of knowing whether Da’s failure to gain acknowlegement of realization, and in fact dismissal of Da’s claims, from any of those considered jnanis are actually jnanis, one is on very shaky ground. And if one’s argument is that the vast majority of those who came to him failed to find the promised signs of pervasive peace and equality, etc. associated with jnana representative of his presence, teaching and organization.

    I do not mean to suggest that active support of Da’s conclusions about the alleged deficiencies in the realizations of all others in history and by those clearly not being that familiar outside of what Da has said about the lives or teachings of said jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi by his devotees is somehow to be dismissed out of hand. What I do suggest is that this argument offers far less support to Da’s devotees than to critics.

    And in response to the argument that we do not know what anything is and therefore can not assess Da:

    It is true that Da famously said that one can acquire relative knowlege about something but can not know what anything IS, holding up the ashtray! I heard him say that personally, and I saw people in the group become endlessly fascinated with the idea without really understanding it. But to merely parrot that as some sort of unprecedented revelation does not really address to what extent the concept is actually unprecedented, and whether that statement is actually true in the way Da has publicized it.

    The fact is that, as Sri Muruganar (one of Ramana’s enlightened disciples) states: “Knowledge and ignorance can only pertain to objects, the non-Self. They are not appropriate to the Self, whose form is pure consciousness.” The traditional understanding is that primary avidya (ignorance) prevents us from knowing the Unitary Reality (which IS) and causes us to assume knowledge of and about things which is illusory. This ignorance does not apply to the Self-Realized who are aware that there is nothing but the Self, and therefore there is no real question about what anything IS, since it must be the Self. But further, the jnani, having realized all is one, is also due to this inate Unity not deceived in relative terms